Suzuka Circuit -JAPANESE Grand Prix 2009 - Race 15/17

[alex24]

Hamiltons father would kick up a stink again if they ever try to sign someone as an equal to give his son a hard time.

I don't agree with that. I think Lewis relishes in a challenge, and that would be just it, I'm sure his father knows this too. The team certainly wouldn't sign someone up just to 'give him a hard time' either, it's about winning races and getting points, not some obscure psychological mind game.

I think everyone is reading too much into things.

 

[sunama]

Maybe get your facts right first before slating someone - )

Right, so thats why Barrichello has outscored Button in the 2nd half of the season? BTW, thats a fact, not an opinion.

Check out the points table:

In the last six races, up to and including Japan, this is how the points look:

35 Raikkonen
34 Hamilton
27 Barrichello
22 Vettel
17 Button

I can see you are an avid Button fan, but you must maintain your calm and look at the facts/statistics. Button has been outgunned since Silverstone.

It would be very rare for Alonso or Hamilton to be outscored by their team mates over a series of races in the same way that Button clearly has.

 

[Malt_Vinegar]

I can see you are an avid Button fan, but you must maintain your calm and look at the facts/statistics. Button has been outgunned since Silverstone.

It would be very rare for Alonso or Hamilton to be outscored by their team mates over a series of races in the same way that Button clearly has.

Only thing is, the season is not just the last few series of races, so its kinda irrelivant. How much did Button out-score Barrichello in the first part of the season... I think that is just as relevant.

 

[Malt_Vinegar]

Don't agree with this... and what about Kimi going to McLaren for 2010?

Kimi is going there (imo) to collect a nice paycheck, and bumble about as number 2 before going off to Rally with Fiat for 2011, perhaps also during 2010 too.

 

[sunama]

Surely, that argument depends on who the other driver is??

Barrichello is hardly a Piquet, or Grosjean? He is the most experienced F1 driver ever (iirc? certainly currently racing) a double championship runner up to boot.

A driver (or any sportsman) can only compete against the competition placed in front of him.

What about when Alonso and Hamilton were racing each other in the same team, who dominated who?

Neither dominated because it turned out that they were probably the 2 best drivers in 2007 (perhaps along with Kimi). Pair those drivers up with any other driver currently in F1 and they will get outscored. Next year, will be interesting as we will see Hamilton and Alonso both, go up against decent drivers again (Kimi and Massa).

 

[sunama]

Only thing is, the season is not just the last few series of races, so its kinda irrelivant. How much did Button out-score Barrichello in the first part of the season... I think that is just as relevant.

Like I stated in my earlier post, Button needs the car to be perfectly set up and built for him. If the car is even slightly not to his liking, he suffers badly. The same cannot be said for Alonso or Hamilton.

Button did a great job in the first half of the season, but has been outscored by his team mate in the 2nd half of the season.

Comparing this with Alonso and Hamilton: they havent been outscored by their team-mates across a series of 6-7 races, in the same way Button has.

Note that I'm not saying Button is rubbish. I'm just saying he isnt in the same tier as Hamilton or Alonso, who I rank as the top 2 drivers in F1, at present.

 

[Mr Jack]

Don't agree with this... and what about Kimi going to McLaren for 2010?

Has that been confirmed, or is it still rumour?

 

[sunama]

Has that been confirmed, or is it still rumour?

Still a rumour, though Kimi (or his agent) is in talks with McLaren.

 

[dannyjo22]

Don't agree with this... and what about Kimi going to McLaren for 2010?

Kimis a wash up. He currently looks half decent because Massa is sick and another driver hasn't had car time. Another driver would be getting far more out of the car. ferrari obviously have had enough of his 6 race performance per year which is why they are buying him out of his inflated contract.

I don't agree with that. I think Lewis relishes in a challenge, and that would be just it, I'm sure his father knows this too. The team certainly wouldn't sign someone up just to 'give him a hard time' either, it's about winning races and getting points, not some obscure psychological mind game.

I think everyone is reading too much into things.

Lewis would race anyone and relishes being pushed, his father is way more protective of who he gets paired with and how much focus has to be on lewis.

 

[dannyjo22]

Like I stated in my earlier post, Button needs the car to be perfectly set up and built for him. If the car is even slightly not to his liking, he suffers badly. The same cannot be said for Alonso or Hamilton.

Button did a great job in the first half of the season, but has been outscored by his team mate in the 2nd half of the season.

Comparing this with Alonso and Hamilton: they havent been outscored by their team-mates across a series of 6-7 races, in the same way Button has.

Note that I'm not saying Button is rubbish. I'm just saying he isnt in the same tier as Hamilton or Alonso, who I rank as the top 2 drivers in F1, at present.

Yet you still wont acknowledge that the circumstances to be compared with alonso and hamilton are completely different. The car is built around those two drivers, the focus of the team is around those two drivers.

You want to seem to compare button who has to fight for focus and with his team mate against drivers who do not. Plus as has been said Rubens is a much better driver than Piquet Kova or any of the other numpties that those two will get paired with. Even if Rubens goes to Mclaren next year he won't be doing it on an equal footing.

 

[FrankJH]

You can't take anything away from a driver if they are slow in a slow car. However, when your team-mate is faster in the same car (as Barrichello has been since Silverstone), you can absolutely blame the slower driver.

So come on then lets see you blame Rubens for Silverstone, Singapore and Japan as he was clearly and measurablly SLOWER than Jenson over all three races

Rubens lost a place from start to finish at Silverstone yet Button did not (and they where only 5s apart at the end, compared to number of places thats very minimal)

Germany - Button went from 3rd to fifth, Rubens went from 2nd to 6th

Hungary - Jenson made up one place in the points - Rubens made up two places out of the points

Valencia - as I mentioned before here Rubens clearly won - the only race where he does CLEARLY do better than JB

Spa - nothing can really be proved as Jenson only completed one lap - but coming 7th isnt that much to shout about from Ruben's point of view

Italy - they finished in the same position they started with minimal seconds between them (relative to each other)

Singapore - Jenson finished ahead after starting behind

Japan - nose to tail ( and Jenson was faster thoughout the majority of the race)

So who was the slower driver again over all the races ?hhmmmmmm

 

[NathanE]

 

[shrek2]

Kimis a wash up. He currently looks half decent because Massa is sick and another driver hasn't had car time. Another driver would be getting far more out of the car. ferrari obviously have had enough of his 6 race performance per year which is why they are buying him out of his inflated contract.



.

Like?

 

[Duke]

 

[sunama]

See the bold lettering. I'm refering to the wiki page to remind me of the race results for this season.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Formula_One_season

Rubens lost a place from start to finish at Silverstone yet Button did not (and they where only 5s apart at the end, compared to number of places thats very minimal). You seem to omit the part where Barrichello finished 2nd and Button finished 6th. Thats a pretty important point.

Germany - Button went from 3rd to fifth, Rubens went from 2nd to 6th
Yep. Button finished ahead of Barrichello. Fair enough.

Hungary - Jenson made up one place in the points - Rubens made up two places out of the points. Button outperformed Barrichello.

Valencia - as I mentioned before here Rubens clearly won - the only race where he does CLEARLY do better than JB. Yep. Enough said.

Spa - nothing can really be proved as Jenson only completed one lap - but coming 7th isnt that much to shout about from Ruben's point of view. We cant make any conclusions for this race.

Italy - they finished in the same position they started with minimal seconds between them (relative to each other). The fact remains that Barrichello outscored Button. Thats a fact.

Singapore - Jenson finished ahead after starting behind You forgot to mention that Button managed to get ahead of Barrichello, because Barrichello had a problem in the pits. Otherwise, odds are that Barrichello would've stayed ahead of Button. The fact is that Button finished 1 place ahead of Barrichello.

Japan - nose to tail ( and Jenson was faster thoughout the majority of the race). Once again, you forget to mention that across the full race weekend, Barrichello outperformed Button, culminating in Barrichello finishing ahead of Button.

So who was the slower driver again over all the races ?hhmmmmmm
I'm not sure about slower/faster, but the driver who was able to score more points was definitely Barrichello. Conversely, Button totally outgunned Barrichello in the first half of the season, when he had the car exactly to his liking.

There have been many drivers over the years who have been fast. However, the best drivers are those who are able to outscore other drivers. Generally, these drivers tend to do very well in the WDC.

MS is a great example. Senna was definitely a faster driver. IMO he was the fastest ever. But when it came to putting together huge points totals, no one beats MS. The guy knew when to go fast and when not to. This allowed him to win many championships. Prost was also very good at putting huge points totals together, without necessarily being the outright fastest driver on the track.

In summary, the fastest drivers are not necessarily the best drivers. And besides, in terms of outright speed, Button certainly isnt the fastest in F1, in 2009.

 

[dannyjo22]

Like?

Vettel
Rosberg
Hamilton
Alonso
Button
Kubica
Rubens
And obviously Massa

The Kimi that used to be at mclaren would have whipped massa into retirement. Hell Massa was practically finished in f1, no one was interested in his services. He couldn't pound on a passed it villeneuve. Yet has made a far easier job of making Kimi look uninterested. Even in the year he won the title he was heavily tipped to get the boot due to his form. He has turned up for 5 or 6 races per year at ferrari. The only way Massa will beat Alonso in points is if reliabilty plays a part.

IF kimi goes to Mclaren Hamilton will slaughter him. Hell I bet MS now wishes he hadn't ducked out when they signed kimi.

 

[sunama]

Kimis a wash up. He currently looks half decent because Massa is sick and another driver hasn't had car time. Another driver would be getting far more out of the car. ferrari obviously have had enough of his 6 race performance per year which is why they are buying him out of his inflated contract.
.

A few days ago, I wouldve been in total agreement. But after someone posted the points totals for the last 6 races, Kimi finished top. Given that Ferrari havent had the best car during that period, I would say that is pretty damn impressive.

You're right in that he doesnt seem to be strong over the full season. He fades in and out and right now, he has faded back in and is performing well.

He does indeed have an inflated contract. He is one of the highest paid drivers in F1 ever, and I dont feel that this is justified. My feeling is that Ferrari want to have the best driver in F1 and in Alonso, they believe that that is exactly what they will be getting in 2010. Hence, Kimi had to go.

 

[sunama]

IF kimi goes to Mclaren Hamilton will slaughter him. Hell I bet MS now wishes he hadn't ducked out when they signed kimi.

Damn. You really don't like Kimi do you?

Kimi isn't as bad as you are making him out to be.

 

[shrek2]

Vettel
Rosberg
Hamilton
Alonso
Button
Kubica
Rubens
And obviously Massa

The Kimi that used to be at mclaren would have whipped massa into retirement. Hell Massa was practically finished in f1, no one was interested in his services. He couldn't pound on a passed it villeneuve. Yet has made a far easier job of making Kimi look uninterested. Even in the year he won the title he was heavily tipped to get the boot due to his form. He has turned up for 5 or 6 races per year at ferrari. The only way Massa will beat Alonso in points is if reliabilty plays a part.

IF kimi goes to Mclaren Hamilton will slaughter him. Hell I bet MS now wishes he hadn't ducked out when they signed kimi.

I disagree. Button? Vettel? Rosberg? Ok. I still think he is the fastest driver in F1. Its just a certain thing called consictency that he seems to be lacking.
The "turn up and drive" attitude may have worked for him in the past but everyone seems to be raising their game lately.

 

[FrankJH]

snip.

you missed the whole point , you said the FASTER driver - there was only Valencia where Rubens was much faster than Jenson, even if you want to include Silverstone - 5 seconds different at the flag over 50 odd laps, I still dont see that as anything major to shout about in favour of Rubens

Singapore - did you actually see the distance when Jenson came out of the pits, it was visibly more than the 2-3 seconds which Rubens is meant to have lost in the pits (which was even mentioned by Martin at the time)

Japan - actually look at fastest laps between them, look at how much Jenson was catching Rubens before the sc period - Rubens was NO WAY the fastest driver in the race


Even the points table doesnt aid your initial comment - Rubens has gained 10 more points in the 2nd half of the season, 8 of which where at Valencia and to make things simple the other two where at Spa (but you could quite easily say Imola with the 1 - 2)

Otherwise over 2nd half of the season they have been very , or even EXACTLY , even in points won

One race out of 14 - yeah Rubens has done well against Jenson hasnt he!! (NOT)