Suzuka Circuit -JAPANESE Grand Prix 2009 - Race 15/17

dannyjo22 · 5 Oct 2009 at 19:19

sunama said:
Damn. You really don't like Kimi do you?

Kimi isn't as bad as you are making him out to be.

Nah I loved Kimi, in the days I used to use gp.com forum I was his biggest defender on there when people always said he wasn't consistent enough to win in anything but a car 1/2 second faster than the rest.

So what Kimi has scored more over 6 races, I'd bet whatever he has scored Massa would have scored more. He used to be brave and totally commited. Now he's collecting cash. He only evers gets his arse in gear when the paddock talk is of being replaced.

I bet he thought he would be fine for 2010 after a spurt of form. Ferrari have had enough. I cannot remember a time when Kimi turned up with a average pace and turned the car around over a weekend for race day. He either turns up and the car works or he does nothing. I'd bet DC had a huge hand in the mclaren pace and developement.

I honestly thought Kimi would be a multiple world champion. On his day if the car works no one is faster. I just don't think he's very bright at all. His complete lack of car set up knowledge probably comes down to the lack of racing apprenticeship he had before he was thrust into F1. Also of note is I don't think Kimi ever drove an f1 car without gadgets. When they were removed his consistency went with it.

dannyjo22 · 5 Oct 2009 at 19:24

FrankJH said:
Japan - actually look at fastest laps between them, look at how much Jenson was catching Rubens before the sc period - Rubens was NO WAY the fastest driver in the race

He would have passed Rubens if it wasn't for the safety car. The safety car was a godsend for rubens. It put the faster Kubica on Buttons tail. Button then had only one look at Rubens then had to go defensive.

FrankJH · 6 Oct 2009 at 05:15

dannyjo22 said:
He would have passed Rubens if it wasn't for the safety car. The safety car was a godsend for rubens. It put the faster Kubica on Buttons tail. Button then had only one look at Rubens then had to go defensive.

exactly my point - that points table is really only biased in Rubens favour because of one race, Valencia , otherwise they are pretty even over 2nd half of the season

and because JB has been starting further back because of bad quali's - he has actually been faster in majority of races (and according to Autosport , the sc in Singapore ruined a 2nd place finish for JB too)

sunama · 6 Oct 2009 at 08:18

In order to defend JB's honour, you guys are having to use A LOT of if's and but's. Myself, I'm looking purely at the facts and they show that Barrichello has outscored Button during the 2nd half of the season by a good margin. That IS a fact. No if's. No but's.

If a driver is to be mentioned in the same category as Hamilton or Alonso, you can't rely on if's and but's. You have to outqualify your team mate and then demolish them in the race. This is something that Button isn't doing.

Duke · 6 Oct 2009 at 08:27

sunama said:
If a driver is to be mentioned in the same category as Hamilton or Alonso, you can't rely on if's and but's.

Yeah you do.

Hamilton would have won 2 WDC if he didn't make so many mistakes in 07.

Alonso would have won the 07 WDC if he wasn't such a cheater

/legs it

sunama · 6 Oct 2009 at 08:42

Duke said:
Hamilton would have won 2 WDC if he didn't make so many mistakes in 07.

Alonso would have won the 07 WDC if he wasn't such a cheater

Indeed. But as you say, they didnt win.

Instead, Hamilton won the title in his 2nd season in F1, while Alonso is already a double world champion.

PS. How is Alonso a cheater?

FrankJH · 6 Oct 2009 at 08:51

sunama said:
In order to defend JB's honour, you guys are having to use A LOT of if's and but's. Myself, I'm looking purely at the facts and they show that Barrichello has outscored Button during the 2nd half of the season by a good margin. That IS a fact. No if's. No but's.
.

Not at all ONE race is the majority of the points difference in the 2nd half of the season

FACT not opinion

The other 20% where won at Spa , which JB got knocked out by a rookie on the 1st lap (as was Hamilton)

FACT not opinion

Yet you keep on refusing to admit your origiinal comment was wrong

Fact not opinion

Valencia was the ONLY race throughout the season where Rubens has been measurably faster, otherwise its been exactly balanced

No ifs, buts or maybe's

sunama · 6 Oct 2009 at 08:56

And the most important FACT is that Barrichello has outscored Button in the 2nd half of the season. It doesnt matter that a big percentage of those points came in 1, 2 or 5 races.

Hamilton and Alonso on the other hand have beaten their team-mates regularly, right across the season. The difference here is that Button is struggling to beat his team-mate while Hamilton and Alonso do so effortlessly.

dannyjo22 · 6 Oct 2009 at 09:02

sunama said:
In order to defend JB's honour, you guys are having to use A LOT of if's and but's. Myself, I'm looking purely at the facts and they show that Barrichello has outscored Button during the 2nd half of the season by a good margin. That IS a fact. No if's. No but's.

If a driver is to be mentioned in the same category as Hamilton or Alonso, you can't rely on if's and but's. You have to outqualify your team mate and then demolish them in the race. This is something that Button isn't doing.

Thats hilarious, theres no one who uses the f1 threads that uses opinion as fact more than you do.

Yet again you are glossing over the FACT that Jenson has a better quality team mate than either of the drivers you mention.

Perhaps If they lob a complete rookie as Jensons team mate or a team mate thats battered by the manager right before he gets in the car you will be happy that Jenson is a mega star because he beats him 17-0.

This one time you have used a figure to present as a fact when you have spent the last 2 years presenting opinion as fact with regards Jenson.

Clearly mansell, prost and senna are crap as well because at times in their careers they didn't whup team mates as alonso is doing with Piquet and then Romain Chicken Goujon.

So maybe I can find a series of races where Heikki scored more than Hamilton, that will make hamilton poor by fact as well?

Mad old tory · 6 Oct 2009 at 09:39

dannyjo22 said:
Thats hilarious, theres no one who uses the f1 threads that uses opinion as fact more than you do.

Yet again you are glossing over the FACT that Jenson has a better quality team mate than either of the drivers you mention.

Perhaps If they lob a complete rookie as Jensons team mate or a team mate thats battered by the manager right before he gets in the car you will be happy that Jenson is a mega star because he beats him 17-0.

This one time you have used a figure to present as a fact when you have spent the last 2 years presenting opinion as fact with regards Jenson.

Clearly mansell, prost and senna are crap as well because at times in their careers they didn't whup team mates as alonso is doing with Piquet and then Romain Chicken Goujon.

So maybe I can find a series of races where Heikki scored more than Hamilton, that will make hamilton poor by fact as well?

You've summed up my thoughts on this exactly. Apparently Button's fans are using a lot of ifs and buts to help their case. Well sunama, you're using a flawed argument to seemingly suggest Button is an average driver. Barrichello is a far better driver than Kovaleinen and Grosjean.

In fact, weren't you jabbering on about Kovaleinen being the best no.2 in F1 a couple of years ago, discounting people like Barichello because you acknowledged that he was in a team of two drivers on roughly equal standing. To me, that sounds like you're acknowledging Barichello is a better driver than Hamilton's and Alonso's teammates and yet Button is an inferior driver because he cannot beat his teammate consistently? It's just a bizarre argument.

For what it's worth, I'm not suggesting Button is quite at Alonso and Hamilton's level but I think he is a terribly underated driver who will show himself to be a class act for the rest of his career if he can keep himself in a decent car.

sunama · 6 Oct 2009 at 09:39

sunama · 6 Oct 2009 at 09:42

dannyjo22 said:
Clearly mansell, prost and senna are crap as well because at times in their careers they didn't whup team mates as alonso is doing with Piquet and then Romain Chicken Goujon.

Prost, Mansell, Senna consistently outscored their team-mates, no matter who they were. The only guys who they couldnt "bully" were eachother. A similar situation has already occurred with Alonso and Hamilton.

dannyjo22 said:
So maybe I can find a series of races where Heikki scored more than Hamilton, that will make hamilton poor by fact as well?

Good luck finding a series of 5-6 races where Hamilton is outraced, outscored and out qualified by his team-mate.

dannyjo22 · 6 Oct 2009 at 10:17

sunama said:
Prost, Mansell, Senna consistently outscored their team-mates, no matter who they were. The only guys who they couldnt "bully" were eachother. A similar situation has already occurred with Alonso and Hamilton.

Good luck finding a series of 5-6 races where Hamilton is outraced, outscored and out qualified by his team-mate.

No prost mansell and senna didn't consistently outscore their team mates. After all both senna and prost beat each other in the same team and car

Ok lets take 1993 For one six race period Hill scored 41 points to Prosts 18. So thats Prost disproved.

Mansell, well lets forget about 1994 and 95 shall we I'm pretty sure Mansell was beaten consistently in 1990 by Prost.

Last 6 races of 1989 Berger 22 points to mansells 4.
First 6 races of 1987 Mansell 23 points Piquet 24 or of if you want to go to first 9 races Mansell 33 points Piquet 50 points.

Onto 1986 last 7 races of 1986, Piquet 43 points mansell 26 points.

I think thats going far enough to prove mansell didn't consistenly beat his team mate, by using your reckoning and '6 race theory' you can use any stats you like to make someone look bad.

The above stats prove nothing because it doesn't take into account external factors affecting reliabilty, accidents or even the quality of your team mate.

But hey you wanted Facts.

dannyjo22 · 6 Oct 2009 at 10:28

sunama said:
Good luck finding a series of 5-6 races where Hamilton is outraced, outscored and out qualified by his team-mate.

Ok, 2007 Silverstone to Italy. Alonso 45 points Lewis 33 points or if you want to go longer Silverstone to Brazil Alonso 50 points Hamilton 45 points.

Kenai · 6 Oct 2009 at 10:29

sunama said:
Myself, I'm looking purely at the facts and they show that Barrichello has outscored Button during the 2nd half of the season by a good margin. That IS a fact. No if's. No but's.

That's a blinkered way to look at things though - if the outscoring is due to things such as Jenson getting punted off the track by a newbie, it's shortsighted to just look at the numbers and say 'Barichello has been the faster driver'.

FrankJH · 6 Oct 2009 at 10:33

sunama said:
And the most important FACT is that Barrichello has outscored Button in the 2nd half of the season. It doesnt matter that a big percentage of those points came in 1, 2 or 5 races.
.

One race can be put down to fluke, even two over a full season

The higher proportion of times one person is faster - as you initially stated before changing your point - the more likely he is a better driver

As pointed out throughout (even if you want to refuse to believe it) on race day Button has not been measurably slower than Barrichello on more than 2 occasions since Melbourne

HK has beaten the Messiah once or twice - but even I know that was fluke

Anyway, you never want to admit when you are wrong, I guess I shouldnt be surprised

Malt_Vinegar · 6 Oct 2009 at 10:35

sunama said:
The difference here is that Button is struggling to beat his team-mate while Hamilton and Alonso do so effortlessly.

YET... He is still in the lead.... HE IS BEATING BARRICHELLO...

wez130 · 6 Oct 2009 at 11:25

Malt_Vinegar said:
YET... He is still in the lead.... HE IS BEATING BARRICHELLO...

exactamundo.

Button may be qualifying a little slower than Barrchello, but he is still making better progress on race day than Barrichello too, and there have been at least 2 occasions where Button could have gone on to overtake Barrichello had the SC not been deployed, last race included. Spa, another occasion where possibly beaten Barrichello, that's almost 1/5th of the season where Button has not beaten Barrichello purely down to bad luck.

Smit · 6 Oct 2009 at 11:44

Surely if you qualify lower in a car that IS good enough to overtake then you have more of a chance to make up more places than your team mate that out qualified you.. Seems pretty logical to me.

Couldn't care less who is better between the Brawn drivers.

smr · 6 Oct 2009 at 12:37

Smit said:
Surely if you qualify lower in a car that IS good enough to overtake then you have more of a chance to make up more places than your team mate that out qualified you.. Seems pretty logical to me.

Couldn't care less who is better between the Brawn drivers.

Button is the better driver
Rubens is the better podium celebrator.