Taiwan and China thread.

[Chuk_Chuk]

Correct.

We colonised Falklands as well I believe.

Taiwan historically was under Chinese rule so whilst I do kind of see their point, it's clear the current Taiwan is more than just a wayward province in global importance.

The people of Taiwan should have the right to choose their own destiny.

Before all of this, when I was more ignorant on the history; I was in the screw China, Taiwan is its own country camp and I was surprised that other countries weren't onboard with this.

With Pelosi going over to Taiwan to gain some information for her stock trades I've learnt a bit more about the history of Taiwan and boy is this complicated. I get why people have been kicking the can down the road. There doesn't seem to be a clear/peaceful solution.

 

[Hagar]

There doesn't seem to be a clear/peaceful solution.

There is. China leaves Taiwan alone to carry on an independant existence.

 

[Terminal_Boy]

Correct.

We colonised Falklands as well I believe.

Taiwan historically was under Chinese rule so whilst I do kind of see their point, it's clear the current Taiwan is more than just a wayward province in global importance.

The people of Taiwan should have the right to choose their own destiny.

The first recorded landing was by the English in 1690 en route to Chile and Peru. It remained uninhabited until 1774/5 when both French and British colonies were founded in different islands. The French gave theirs back to Spain some years later, but all the garrisons had been abandoned by 1811. The Argentinians paid a few Yanks and Germans to go whaling there in 1832 under their flag and they decided to claim it for Argentina. London was understandably not pleased with this arrangement and sent the red-coated bailiffs to escort them from the premises the next year.

The Falkland Islands remain proudly British to this day after another, far bloodier eviction in 1982 and 97% of the Islanders recently voted to remain British subjects.

 

[GreatAuk]

Before all of this, when I was more ignorant on the history; I was in the screw China, Taiwan is its own country camp and I was surprised that other countries weren't onboard with this.

With Pelosi going over to Taiwan to gain some information for her stock trades I've learnt a bit more about the history of Taiwan and boy is this complicated. I get why people have been kicking the can down the road. There doesn't seem to be a clear/peaceful solution.

It's not that complicated really though. Countries breaking apart after a civil war has happened before, and there's no good reason that one part of a previous country should be compelled to join another by force. Especially after 70+ years.

It's only complicated for reasons of international relations because the People's Republic is intent on bullying the Republic and forcing them to join their empire when they clearly don't want to.

No more legitimate than if we started launching missiles over the Republic of Ireland every time a foreign politician visited them and made sure they got kicked out of all the international bodies that countries are members of.

Technically they might both claim each other's territory, but the actual threat of force is pretty one-sided.

 

[Jimbeam3678]

Before all of this, when I was more ignorant on the history; I was in the screw China, Taiwan is its own country camp and I was surprised that other countries weren't onboard with this.

With Pelosi going over to Taiwan to gain some information for her stock trades I've learnt a bit more about the history of Taiwan and boy is this complicated. I get why people have been kicking the can down the road. There doesn't seem to be a clear/peaceful solution.

Out of interest what's the complicated part? I would be interested to know.

 

[Chuk_Chuk]

Out of interest what's the complicated part? I would be interested to know.

So this comes across as "unfinished" business from the civil war they had and arguably never concluded.

So should we really be involving ourselves in their civil war? Why should we involve ourselves in it?

What sort of a precedent do we want to set going forward? Do we want to set the precedent where a third party nation help to split up other countries?

What if the shoe is on the other foot and China was "helping" to split up our country? Would we be like thanks for the help China or would we tell tell them to do one and to mind their own business?


The complexity comes from finding a solution that doesn't potentially come back to bite us in the ass. If we said "**** it we will impose our will on everyone" then the solution is easy, just see Hager's post above.

 

[Hagar]

So this comes across as "unfinished" business from the civil war they had and arguably never concluded.

So should we really be involving ourselves in their civil war? Why should we involve ourselves in it?

What sort of a precedent do we want to set going forward? Do we want to set the precedent where a third party nation help to split up other countries?

What if the shoe is on the other foot and China was "helping" to split up our country? Would we be like thanks for the help China or would we tell tell them to do one and to mind their own business?


The complexity comes from finding a solution that doesn't potentially come back to bite us in the ass. If we said "**** it we will impose our will on everyone" then the solution is easy, just see Hager's post above.

Nobody is imposing their will anywhere. The USA is not assisting Taiwan except to say that they have a right to self determination, as do the Falkland Islands, as does Ireland, Scotland, the UK etc., etc.
Taiwan is not a part of the People's Republic of China, it never has been, Taiwan was part of Nationalist China before 1949.

 

[Chuk_Chuk]

Nobody is imposing their will anywhere.

It's a good thing then that I never actually claimed that, that is what people are actually doing.

Spoiler

How did you manage to misinterpret what I was saying? I really want to know. Did you not read my post? did you just skim it? or are you distracted by something else? Was my sentence really that ambiguous?

 

[Blackjack Davy]

Correct.

We colonised Falklands as well I believe.

Taiwan historically was under Chinese rule so whilst I do kind of see their point, it's clear the current Taiwan is more than just a wayward province in global importance.

The people of Taiwan should have the right to choose their own destiny.

Its even more complicated than that historically it was part of the chinese empire but the native taiwanese didn't have much say in that and the nationalist chinese who took over the island after the communist takeover of teh mainland are colonizers too

 

[GreatAuk]

Its even more complicated than that historically it was part of the chinese empire but the native taiwanese didn't have much say in that and the nationalist chinese who took over the island after the communist takeover of teh mainland are colonizers too

It does add to a complex history, but imo the 'colonisation' by the KMT government isn't really relevant to assessing the legitimacy of the modern RoC state since it's a democracy now.

Good press freedoms etc and ranked quite well on those freedom / democracy indexes some organisations produce.

 

[HungryHippos]

Probably the best peaceful solution would be along the lines of a fully autonomous vassal scenario where China rules over Taiwan but at an arms length, Taiwan keeps it's relative freedom, and pays some taxes back to it's overlord, but doesn't otherwise have any real involvement.

I'm not sure I could see either country wanting to go for that though.

 

[GreatAuk]

Probably the best peaceful solution would be along the lines of a fully autonomous vassal scenario where China rules over Taiwan but at an arms length, Taiwan keeps it's relative freedom, and pays some taxes back to it's overlord, but doesn't otherwise have any real involvement.

I'm not sure I could see either country wanting to go for that though.

A bit like the one country two systems rule they had for Hong Kong, and have famously respected .

Can't see many Taiwanese going for something like that.

 

[HungryHippos]

A bit like the one country two systems rule they had for Hong Kong, and have famously respected .

Can't see many Taiwanese going for something like that.

True, though HK situation was a little different in some ways.

If such a plan went ahead Taiwan should be able to maintain the status quo and be backed up countries such as the USA in order to do so, it should also not be involved in any wars or conflicts etc.

Essentially cash cow, and some form of shipping route access which is what they were after anyway.

 

[Roar87]

China isn't going to concede any sort of power to Taiwan, and Taiwan isn't going to let itself be ruled by China. Both of those positions are pretty much set in stone so I don't see how there can not be a conflict.

 

[GreatAuk]

Tensions and the potential for conflict will probably be a growing problem too as the domestic situation in China takes a turn. Time honoured tradition to try and distract people with rhetoric on foreign policy and criticise other countries when there's trouble at home. Especially for authoritarian countries, stoking international tensions can help consolidate power with the current rulers and keep the population on side.

Coupled with taking Taiwan being a long term goal for the CCP, puts it in a rather unfortunate position...

 

[Rroff]

Very different scenarios, not really a good comparison. For one thing the Falkland Islanders are happy being a British Overseas Territory, while the Taiwanese population doesn't want to be ruled by the CCP. That's the most important factor imo.

The relationship between the Falklands and Spain and France (other countries that had claims on them at some point) is very different to the relationship between Taiwan and China too.

For another thing, the Falklands weren't even inhabited until a few hundred years ago, there is no possibility of some argument around ancient cultural traditions of the island being Spanish or whatever.

Or if your angle is that the Falklands should be part of Argentina because they're in their 'zone of influence' (which seems to be an argument used for Ukraine > Russia and Taiwan > China) then how exactly does that concept work? Why isn't Ireland in the UK's zone of influence, for example? Would we be justified if we felt like invading Ireland? I don't think so.

I think ChrispyKarma was going for a slightly different take on it - of why can't whoever can project the most military power decide who owns an area as it was how it mostly worked in the past.

If we were to get all convoluted about it - many of these contested islands originally only really had permanent populations after being settled by the Dutch, Spanish or French - so maybe they should be handed back to those countries LOL.

 

[dowie]

If such a plan went ahead Taiwan should be able to maintain the status quo and be backed up countries such as the USA in order to do so, it should also not be involved in any wars or conflicts etc.

Like when Ukraine gave up the Soviet nukes on its territory in return for assurances and guarantees from the US, UK and Russia.

 

[HungryHippos]

Like when Ukraine gave up the Soviet nukes on its territory in return for assurances and guarantees from the US, UK and Russia.

Kind of but this time in a way that actually works.

 

[dowie]

Kind of but this time in a way that actually works.

How though? Unless you want Taiwan to join some Asian equivalent of NATO and maintain a military and act independently which would completely undermine what China wants in the first place.

I mean part of that is the current situation, everyone already pretends there is one China and Taiwan unofficially maintains diplomatic links etc.. but has its own military etc..

 

[HungryHippos]

Don't pretend to have the answers but a peaceful solution is definitely better than alternatives.

Would be nice if they properly sit down before actually trying the whole take it by force tactic.