Tearing down statues

C Kent said:
No I know nothing about the fella, just the juxtaposition between peace activist and convicted murderer struck me as amusing. But seeing as Obama denied his clemency appeal I don't think it's as black and white as you are making out.
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I don’t really see what Obama has to do with it. Look him up. He’s widely considered a political prisoner.

The U.S. Parole Commission has held a number of parole hearings on Leonard Peltier’s case. However, it has denied parole on the grounds that Leonard Peltier did not accept criminal responsibility for the murders of the two FBI agents. This is despite the fact that, after one such hearing, the Commission acknowledged that, “the prosecution has conceded the lack of any direct evidence that you personally participated in the executions of two FBI agents”. Furthermore, James H. Reynolds, former US Attorney and the supervisor of the attorneys who prosecuted Leonard Peltier and handled his appeal, has publicly called for clemency and the release of Leonard Peltier.
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https://www.amnesty.org.uk/urgent-actions/native-american-activist-risk-covid-19

Things are rarely ever black and white.
 
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C Kent said:
Just that the dude loved to grant clemency to people, think he was in top 3 in us history. If the case was as simple as you suggest I think Obama would have been all over it.
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Read the quote above. He wants (and is most probably due) a pardon. Not clemency or parole.
 
inogen said:
Read the quote above. He wants (and is most probably due) a pardon. Not clemency or parole.
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They are the same thing essentially, in this context. President's pardon/commutation/give clemency to prisoners during office. Obama did this nearly 2000 times in his 8 years.
 
C Kent said:
They are the same thing essentially.
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Well no, they clearly aren't. Because in order to receive clemency or be granted parole Peltier would have to admit guilt, when he's always protested his innocence. Which is one of the reasons why he considered a political prisoner.

This is despite the authorities admitting that they had and have no evidence to support what he was charged and convicted of. And the witness statements on which he was convicted having been retracted and discredited for being obtained under duress.

That is explained in the quote above.
 
inogen said:
Well no, they clearly aren't. Because in order to receive clemency or be granted parole Peltier would have to admit guilt, when he's always protested his innocence. Which is one of the reasons why he considered a political prisoner.

This is despite the authorities admitting that they had and have no evidence to support what he was charged and convicted of. And the witness statements on which he was convicted having been retracted and discredited for being obtained under duress.

That is explained in the quote above.
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I've just had a quick look and not only did Obama reject Peltiers clemency appeal but so did Clinton and Bush Jr. I can see he lodged another clemency appeal at the end of trump's term but can't see anything else about it, I would assume that wasn't successful either.

Given that 4 different president's have rejected the guys appeal it's not as simple as you are making it out to be.
 
C Kent said:
I've just had a quick look and not only did Obama reject Peltiers clemency appeal but so did Clinton and Bush Jr. I can see he lodged another clemency appeal at the end of trump's term but can't see anything else about it, I would assume that wasn't successful either.

Given that 4 different president's have rejected the guys appeal it's not as simple as you are making it out to be.
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Do you want me to explain to you again why all of these clemency appeals have failed? The guy won't admit guilt. Therefore no clemency available, despite everyone else involved wanting him to receive it including the guy who prosecuted him.

I think this small discussion has run it's course.
 
inogen said:
Do you want me to explain to you again why all of these clemency appeals have failed? The guy won't admit guilt. Therefore no clemency available, despite everyone else involved wanting him to receive it including the guy who prosecuted him.

I think this small discussion has run it's course.
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Why would he continuously lodge an appeal then?

Edit:
You are right I think it has run its course, well off topic anyway :)
 
C Kent said:
If an element of someone's past offends then go through the proper legal channels to remove/amend monuments built to celebrate the good they did.
You already have people in the US move from removing statues of Robert E Lee to tearing down statues of George Washington.
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Naturally I abhor slavery, then and now, but I find it hard to dislike Robert E. Lee, J.E.B. Stuart, Thomas “Stonewall” Jackson and James Longstreet, all quixotic Generals in the Confederate States Army.
Sure they fought for a Cause and that Cause was the wrong one but you couldn’t help but admire their style and prowess on the battlefield, although fortunately they were on the losing side eventually.
 
Jean-F said:
Naturally I abhor slavery, then and now, but I find it hard to dislike Robert E. Lee, J.E.B. Stuart, Thomas “Stonewall” Jackson and James Longstreet, all quixotic Generals in the Confederate States Army.
Sure they fought for a Cause and that Cause was the wrong one but you couldn’t help but admire their style and prowess on the battlefield, although fortunately they were on the losing side eventually.
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Weird flex.

I'm a huge fan of Goebbels and Göring, sure they were on the wrong side of history, but they fought for a cause. Lol
 
I ultimately don't really care about the statues. If people find the offensive because of a ****** history, get rid throw em in a museum and put something good there instead.

However imagine if people removed statues like this shiny horse ball one, or the Glasgow one with a cone on his head?

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Efour said:
Weird flex.

I'm a huge fan of Goebbels and Göring, sure they were on the wrong side of history, but they fought for a cause. Lol
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Many historians and armed forces members consider Jackson to be one of the greatest generals to have ever lived. There was a really good documentary on the history channel a few years back thst I watched.
 
C Kent said:
Many historians and armed forces members consider Jackson to be one of the greatest generals to have ever lived. There was a really good documentary on the history channel a few years back thst I watched.
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There's a lot of military respect for Kesselring and Rommel. Are statues okay for them?
 
Status are just ok. No one can please everyone all of the time but if you don't agree with a statue just disagree and move on with your life.

Why does everything have to be so complicated these days. Everyone has an opinion that HAS to be listened too otherwise they feel oppressed or something.

This really isn't that much of an issue.
 
C Kent said:
Many historians and armed forces members consider Jackson to be one of the greatest generals to have ever lived. There was a really good documentary on the history channel a few years back thst I watched.
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you are obviously a white supremacist racist pro slave fascist. /ignore list
 
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