Tearing down statues

Fubsy said:
When people say don't pull these down/damaged/etc, I don't see people defending the past but instead want to preserve it so that it isn't hidden away. The problem with that though is getting everyone educated about said monuments to history so that they can be learned from, understood (in the context of their time) and vowed never to allow again.

Tbh, I don't want to be reminded of slavery and wouldn't mind it all being removed, but then how would future generations learn? Is it not healthy to know how we got here (figuratively and culturally), despicable as it is?
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Are you honestly saying the only way to learn and/or remember slavery is to put up statues? Im not even sure if I have personaly seen a statue of a slave trader in the wild yet I know about slavery. I just dont get this defence of how will we learn. Have you people never heard of books?Maybe we should put some statues of books up.

Actually are the same people that are saying lets keep the statues up so we can learn from them the same people that say there is no need for black history month? Holy moly guys.
 
potatolord said:
King David brutally oppressed the philistines, destroy Michelangelo's David!

#iconoclasmnow
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The Swiss born French architect Le Corbusier who was a co designing architect of the United Nations building by the East River in New York City was alleged to have been a Nazi sympathiser.
In a letter written after Germany conquered France he expressed clear enthusiasm for Hitler’s intervention.
In another letter to his mother he wrote, “If he is serious in his declarations, Hitler can crown his life with a magnificent work: the remaking of Europe.”
Perhaps those who are keen on righting wrongs can whiz over to E.42nd St New York with little jack hammers, you can’t miss the building, it has 194 flags flying from it.
 
Tony Edwards said:
Are you honestly saying the only way to learn and/or remember slavery is to put up statues? Im not even sure if I have personaly seen a statue of a slave trader in the wild yet I know about slavery. I just dont get this defence of how will we learn. Have you people never heard of books?Maybe we should put some statues of books up.

Actually are the same people that are saying lets keep the statues up so we can learn from them the same people that say there is no need for black history month? Holy moly guys.
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You can ignore BHM, you can go through your whole life without reading a book, you can dismiss descendants of slaves and their stories if you wish - I don't advise any of the above as I've found a great deal of value in engaging with all the above.

A statue though, stands there as a signpost to the past. Even if most to me are just bird **** magnets, their presence sometimes starts a conversation for the more curious of us. Remove them and maybe they disappear from modern attention, along with all they did (bad and good) to be forgotten and lost in time,.like... Oh ffs

EDIT: I grew up near Liverpool and first learned of slavery from the Maritime museum on the docks. I thought it would be all ships and pirates and stuff, but came away with my first bit of education on slavery. Got nothing from school and hardly heard anything from friends/relatives over the years. Most people just are not interested. Can't blame them though, it's pretty heavy stuff.
 
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Jean-F said:
The Swiss born French architect Le Corbusier who was a co designing architect of the United Nations building by the East River in New York City was alleged to have been a Nazi sympathiser.
In a letter written after Germany conquered France he expressed clear enthusiasm for Hitler’s intervention.
In another letter to his mother he wrote, “If he is serious in his declarations, Hitler can crown his life with a magnificent work: the remaking of Europe.”
Perhaps those who are keen on righting wrongs can whiz over to E.42nd St New York with little jack hammers, you can’t miss the building, it has 194 flags flying from it.
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The strange thing is that this guy at the BBC statue is the same guy that dressed as spiderman and climbed a bridge ot building, was it action for fathers or something? he was a hero then.
 
Tony Edwards said:
Actually are the same people that are saying lets keep the statues up so we can learn from them the same people that say there is no need for black history month? Holy moly guys.
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I don't know about anyone else, but I'm saying lets not outsouce the decison to spittle flecked mobs and idiots with ladders and hammers. If people want rid of something for aesthetic reasons follow normal democratic processes. If you don't succeed it doesn't mean democracy doesn't work. Some of the fundemental building blocks of democracy are rule of law and property rights without them the vote is worthless.
 
Fubsy said:
You can ignore BHM, you can go through your whole life without reading a book, you can dismiss descendants of slaves and their stories if you wish - I don't advise any of the above as I've found a great deal of value in engaging with all the above.

A statue though, stands there as a signpost to the past. Even if most to me are just bird **** magnets, their presence sometimes starts a conversation for the more curious of us. Remove them and maybe they disappear from modern attention, along with all they did (bad and good) to be forgotten and lost in time,.like... Oh ffs
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Interestingly these staue situations have started a conversation but it isnt about the horrors of slavery it is the horror that history will be forgotten if they are removed.
 
Tony Edwards said:
Interestingly these staue situations have started a conversation but it isnt about the horrors of slavery it is the horror that history will be forgotten if they are removed.
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Well one in that specific instance is a thing of the past that pretty much everyone in the country must be aware of and one risk for the present and future that we seem to be blindly walking toward.
 
PlacidCasual said:
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm saying lets not outsouce the decison to spittle flecked mobs and idiots with ladders and hammers. If people want rid of something for aesthetic reasons follow normal democratic processes. If you don't succeed it doesn't mean democracy doesn't work. Some of the fundemental building blocks of democracy are rule of law and property rights without them the vote is worthless.
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Yes you are right. People in authority should now start taking a good look at what is out there and think is this appropriate. Just like the Dutch have done with their carriage.
 
Tony Edwards said:
Interestingly these staue situations have started a conversation but it isnt about the horrors of slavery it is the horror that history will be forgotten if they are removed.
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What happens when history is forgotten? Although I hesitate on the word forgotten, because it never will be, but more removed from the eye of the everyday person. I think our past should be rubbed in our faces and full explanations put on these things with all the horrifying details, but I also understand that's also insensitive to those that suffered.

Again, not defend the past, but preserve and understand.

Edit: Maybe some sort of nationwide review board should be set up that looks at each offending piece (each one can be raised by the public once per 5 year period say), and has a wide ranging diverse panel that decides on the best route to take the issue forward.
 
Fubsy said:
What happens when history is forgotten? Although I hesitate on the word forgotten, because it never will be, but more removed from the eye of the everyday person. I think our past should be rubbed in our faces and full explanations put on these things with all the horrifying details, but I also understand that's also insensitive to those that suffered.

Again, not defend the past, but preserve and understand.

Edit: Maybe some sort of nationwide review board should be set up that looks at each offending piece (each one can be raised by the public once per 5 year period say), and has a wide ranging diverse panel that decides on the best route to take the issue forward.
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But you know what I think would be more fitting is to put an abstract statue there with a detailed sign saying this statute is in the place of the slave trader Colston that was removed by the city in respect to all those that died and suffered during those times. We dont need the actual guy there.

I think they should do this at all questionable statues. I would say however I would have no problem with the Colston statue at a bristol museum, he was after all a great benefactor at the time with a plaque explaining who he was. I always have this image of the Stalin grave yards when people say put them all in a museum. I hope people dont mean all of them in the same museum that would be gross and anyone that went there should be put on a watchlist.
 
Tony Edwards said:
I would say however I would have no problem with the Colston statue at a bristol museum, he was after all a great benefactor at the time with a plaque explaining who he was.
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That would be the adult/mature thing to do and one I agree with. Move his statue to a museum and add a plaque explaining everything Good and Bad around him. However for the perpetually child-like who want their way and will scream and shout until they get it or lash out like toddlers when they don't, this wouldn't be enough or would take too long, so destruction was as far as their infantile minds could cope with.

From the progressive side, by destroying things they've given themselves a tiny little victory, which they have a little clap about, but at the bigger expense of white-washing history as, now his statue is gone, he (and his slavery) will eventually just be forgotten about whereas keeping his statue but adding plaques/info about his links to Slavery etc keeps that alive. I know if I wanted to vilify someone as a slave owner I would want that to last forever, rather than being a small blip in history.
 
Someone told me today that slave traders were just the estate agents and used car salesmen of the period. I am afraid to say I did laugh... I think this self flagellation over global history is unhealthy and somewhat bizarre.
 
Jean-F said:
I take it that your public vote for direct action against the statue will be aimed at the BBC, (who’ve already declined to remove or replace the work), and not an exhortation to the likes of the four cretins who should be languishing in HMP Bristol at Horfield for their part in the criminal damage of the statue of Colston, and don’t waste anyone’s time declaring me to be a slaver lover, I abhor slavery as much as anyone, but it doesn’t sit right with me when four people admit damaging the statue, only for a jury of intellectual pygmies to find them not guilty.
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The vote isn't for direct action. It's for if the statue of Eric Gill should be officially removed.
 
ianh said:
That would be the adult/mature thing to do and one I agree with. Move his statue to a museum and add a plaque explaining everything Good and Bad around him. However for the perpetually child-like who want their way and will scream and shout until they get it or lash out like toddlers when they don't, this wouldn't be enough or would take too long, so destruction was as far as their infantile minds could cope with.

From the progressive side, by destroying things they've given themselves a tiny little victory, which they have a little clap about, but at the bigger expense of white-washing history as, now his statue is gone, he (and his slavery) will eventually just be forgotten about whereas keeping his statue but adding plaques/info about his links to Slavery etc keeps that alive. I know if I wanted to vilify someone as a slave owner I would want that to last forever, rather than being a small blip in history.
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It's literally in a museum right now, it wasn't destroyed.

Either way doesn't really matter as all of this depends on confidence in institutions and the Tories would apparently prefer the public stops trusting in the law/police/justice system as long as it protects glorious supreme leader Bojo.

The last few months really have not been kind to 'law and order' conservatives.
 
BowdonUK said:
The statue is by Eric Gill who had incest relationships with his sisters, abused his daughters and the family dog.

It's outside the BBC.

If there is a case for direct action against a statue then this is it. Though to be consistant to my principle we'd have to have a public vote before removing it.
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I heard that one of the chaps who worked on building your house got done for noncery some time back, I shall be there forthwith to tear the abomination down.
 
StriderX said:
It's literally in a museum right now, it wasn't destroyed.
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I know, I've not worded my post very well there. What I meant was, rather than cutting it down and pushing it into the harbour (before it was recovered to the museum), it would have been better to have been moved rather than being attacked.
 
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