*** The 2014 Gym Rats Thread ***

[Wh00pS]

I'm a total noob at this and only just started. But for the first time ever I tried some squats tonight. My god they hurt don't they! I did them in the garage (squat rack) and I had trouble getting the car back in there after

I've got a long way to go...

I don't envy the way you are gonna be be feeling over the next few days

 

[Jon33]

Will doing the RSR three times a week work followed by another exercise e.g. benchpress, OHP, BOR work?

 

[mrthingyx]

It shouldn't be a problem at all, depending on your work capacity.

The squats can take around 20 minutes, end-to-end, so if you just factor that in to your workouts, you'll be fine. You may not, however, be able to get decent deadlift volume initially as your central nervous system will potentially just say 'no'.

I would also be careful with any 'taper' type programme - depending on your training history - because if your technique isn't great, spending the second three week period doing very intense lifting may give rise to injury by exacerbating form problems (bum tuck, knee tracking, poor core bracing).

However, I'm not going to feed the mythology around these 'advanced' programs by saying "never do it unless you've been lifting for X amount of time" or whatever... if you're sensible, have good technique and eat/recover enough between sessions, you'll be fine.

How long have you been training (and no, "for a while" doesn't mean anything to me, I'm afraid!) and what is your squat RM?

 

[bakes0310]

Ive been thinking of doing smolov after I done about madcow. But ive been caught up in the advanced lifter only advice. Maybe I should try there bench version smolov jr.
Ive been lifting for about 5 years, but actually strength training for just over a year. So I guess im still classed as a nooby
I don't know my 1RM for squat but this morning was my heavy session and I done 150kg for 3 reps. So I would guess it would be 155kg for 1RM.

Side note, im thinking I might get myself a smartphone as these apps you get looks very handy and does all the working out for you.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.asgaardianworkshop.strengthcalc
That would be amazing for me, I know very little about mobile phones and apps etc but from my understanding looking at that app. Its as simple as putting in what weights you lift currently then click a button and then its all worked out for you throughout your program?

 

[mrthingyx]

Ive been thinking of doing smolov after I done about madcow. But ive been caught up in the advanced lifter only advice. Maybe I should try there bench version smolov jr.
Ive been lifting for about 5 years, but actually strength training for just over a year. So I guess im still classed as a nooby
I don't know my 1RM for squat but this morning was my heavy session and I done 150kg for 3 reps. So I would guess it would be 155kg for 1RM.

Side note, im thinking I might get myself a smartphone as these apps you get looks very handy and does all the working out for you.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.asgaardianworkshop.strengthcalc
That would be amazing for me, I know very little about mobile phones and apps etc but from my understanding looking at that app. Its as simple as putting in what weights you lift currently then click a button and then its all worked out for you throughout your program?

There's nothing wrong with giving these routines a go, but the caveats above apply: start with good technique, good mobility, and ensure enough recovery is had between sessions.

The reason they're advanced (going by training observations from weightlifting/strength coaches) is because most noob lifters haven't got the central nervous system adaptation to cope with massively intense (i.e. high %age RM) every (other) day, and will not be able to cope with the training sessions as required from these planned programmes.

If you have any concerns about your technique, stick them in the 'Form' thread as going for big intensity over three weeks will cause problems. Not specifically for you, bakes0310, but to anybody considering these routines.

And I don't think much of the StrengthCalc app - it never really seemed to do anytning from what I could see. A better source would be AllThingsGym.com as they have Smolov, 5/3/1, RSR, etc. routines all planned out in GoogleDocs...

 

[mrthingyx]

There are some variations here (http://www.seriouspowerlifting.com/2843/articles/20-rep-squat-program) along with other websites.

Sounded interesting enough (quite like the idea of a 6 week program to mix things up a bit) but I'd love to hear what you'd do to improve it, mrthingyx!

If you're looking for all-round strength, then stronglifts really isn't a bad way to go.

However, 5/3/1 sounds more like something for you to consider, as it is a well-structured routine that will incorporate the big canon lifts and build good all-round strength.

Smolov and RSR are specifically tailored for squatting - nothing more, and nothing less. So if you want to do other leg work whilst on these, you should probably look elsewhere (particularly with Smolov).

As a start for ten...

Behind-the-Neck Press: 3x12 This is bad because of the potential for shoulder dis-articulation. BTN PUSHPRESS is fine, but not strict. Why do you want BTN anyway?

Squat: 1x20 As outlined, 1*20 will not do anything for growth or strength. It's stupid and pointless. Yes, you'll get horrific DOMS from it, but if you want that from a functional exercise, try Deficit Bulgarian Split Squats.

Pull-Overs: 1x20 Just do bench, instead, and make sure you get good, quality reps out of the big compounds, rather than mucking around with these ancillary exercises.

Bench Press: 3x12 Fine. But you're going in for hypertrophy rather than strength with these ranges.

Bent-over Rows: 3x15 Why 15 reps? If you're talking single-arm rows after barbell rows, then I get it.

Stiff-legged Deadlift: 1x15 Single set of 15 reps is a recipe for injury. Don't do this.

Shrug: 1x15 These will make you go blind. Learn how to power-shrug, instead. Or better still, the second pull of a snatch.

First off, your rep ranges are set up for (where not completely insane) hypertrophy rather than strength. Whilst strength can come about through motor pattern familiarity, this is not the way to do it: stick to 3-6 (or even 8) reps if you want strength to be the focus.

Secondly, you're missing deadlifts out. This is bad.

Finally, I'm assuming your core strength and control is exceptional, as you have none programmed in there? Consider things like barbell roll-outs, dragonflags, candlesticks or planks (if you can do them properly).

 

[A2Z]

A better source would be AllThingsGym.com as they have Smolov, 5/3/1, RSR, etc. routines all planned out in GoogleDocs...

Never knew about this site thanks for the link.

I checked out http://www.allthingsgym.com/feature-packed-531-excel-spreadsheet/ and it looks great but I have a couple of questions.

Never done 5/3/1 before, for the last couple months just been doing a slight variation of SS, rotating Squat/Bench/Dips/Chins and Squat/OHP/Dead/Pull Ups, 3x5 for the compounds (1x5 dead) and 3x8 for the dips/chins/pull ups, 3 workouts a week.

It's all going good but when I get my lifts(mainly squat) to a weight I am happy with then I will look to switch it up and this spreadsheet looks interesting as it basically has the 4 main exercises I do anyway, although I would still add in some dips/chins as I personally love them.

Anyway what I wanted to ask was I am assuming the 'cycle' is actually 1 week, and the 'weeks' are actually the workouts? As its a bit confusing..

Also for 'week 4 deload', assuming thats the 4th workout in that week, is it really needed? As 3 workouts a week fits my around nicely with work etc

Also eg for week 1 3x5, it has 'rep goal' for the 3rd set for each exercise as 9/8/8. So it's not really 3x5 after all lol? Another part that confused me haha is there a reason why the last set is always high reps as I always thought it was better to keep them low as Im more interested in strength. For the week 2 and 3 workouts, 3x3 and 5/3/1 it also has the last set as high reps. So when exactly would the '1' come into play, ie. the 1 rep max? Or would that be done on the 4th deload workout?

Just trying to get my head round it!

Thanks.

 

[mrthingyx]

I don't have any experience with 5/3/1, but I know a few people on here have had a lot of good stuff from it.

The Week 4 deload is to provide the lifter with a lighter, less intense week to let their nervous systems recover from the Week 3 workload. As with Stronglifts/Starting Strength, the lifter may feel that the first few weeks are easy enough so why not ramp the weights faster, but there is a reason: once the weights really start progressing, that week will be very, very welcome.

 

[A2Z]

I don't have any experience with 5/3/1, but I know a few people on here have had a lot of good stuff from it.

The Week 4 deload is to provide the lifter with a lighter, less intense week to let their nervous systems recover from the Week 3 workload. As with Stronglifts/Starting Strength, the lifter may feel that the first few weeks are easy enough so why not ramp the weights faster, but there is a reason: once the weights really start progressing, that week will be very, very welcome.

Yeah I've just done a bit more reading around and seems I am wrong..it is in fact week 1..week 2...and for each workout you only do one exercise...ie. ONLY 3 sets of squats..and that's it. There seems to be a full body variation to 5/3/1 which is 3 times a week but can't see a spreadsheet for it.

 

[mrthingyx]

Set that as a baseline.

3 sets of squats per session X times a week;
3 sets of bench per session X times a week;
Etc.

For instance, I shouldn't - really - do my weightlifting with RSR, as the whole point is to get as much out of the squatting programme as possible.

But I choose to, meaning my rate of gainz may be slower than somebody else just doing RSR alone, but that's the risk/path I choose.

BennyC was running a Smolov Jr. bench programme with Coan deadlifting programme for ultimate gainz... as one example by itself.

Practically speaking, it doesn't actually matter what you do, as long as it's consistent and progressive. I have three friends (all Strength and Conditioning coaches) who can't seem to make gainz, because they can't stick to a programme - each month they're doing something different. This lack of focus is what is causing them the trouble (and they know it, too, with the line being "I just need somebody to give ME a programme to stick to...") and impeding their progress.

 

[Jon33]

If you're looking for all-round strength, then stronglifts really isn't a bad way to go.

However, 5/3/1 sounds more like something for you to consider, as it is a well-structured routine that will incorporate the big canon lifts and build good all-round strength.

Smolov and RSR are specifically tailored for squatting - nothing more, and nothing less. So if you want to do other leg work whilst on these, you should probably look elsewhere (particularly with Smolov).

As a start for ten...

Behind-the-Neck Press: 3x12 This is bad because of the potential for shoulder dis-articulation. BTN PUSHPRESS is fine, but not strict. Why do you want BTN anyway?

Squat: 1x20 As outlined, 1*20 will not do anything for growth or strength. It's stupid and pointless. Yes, you'll get horrific DOMS from it, but if you want that from a functional exercise, try Deficit Bulgarian Split Squats.

Pull-Overs: 1x20 Just do bench, instead, and make sure you get good, quality reps out of the big compounds, rather than mucking around with these ancillary exercises.

Bench Press: 3x12 Fine. But you're going in for hypertrophy rather than strength with these ranges.

Bent-over Rows: 3x15 Why 15 reps? If you're talking single-arm rows after barbell rows, then I get it.

Stiff-legged Deadlift: 1x15 Single set of 15 reps is a recipe for injury. Don't do this.

Shrug: 1x15 These will make you go blind. Learn how to power-shrug, instead. Or better still, the second pull of a snatch.

First off, your rep ranges are set up for (where not completely insane) hypertrophy rather than strength. Whilst strength can come about through motor pattern familiarity, this is not the way to do it: stick to 3-6 (or even 8) reps if you want strength to be the focus.

Secondly, you're missing deadlifts out. This is bad.

Finally, I'm assuming your core strength and control is exceptional, as you have none programmed in there? Consider things like barbell roll-outs, dragonflags, candlesticks or planks (if you can do them properly).

Thanks for that post, sounds like I'd be better off staying away from that one!

Noticed Smolov jr mentioned somewhere, sounds like a nice one to give a try with and see if I make any progression/enjoy - think it's possible with squat/bench at the same time?

 

[icecold]

Chaps, the reason these programmes are known as advanced isn't some kind of elitist BS. Yes, some of the reasons to avoid them include poor technique and mobility (these are huge problems), but there are others too. For one, the work capacity of a beginner/intermediate lifter is far less than that of an advanced lifter. However, probably most importantly, as a noobie (99% of people reading this) you don't NEED to resort to these more advanced protocols to make progress. If you aren't making progress on a more basic routine, then something is wrong. Fix whatever that is first, because you'll be in a position to get even more out of these advanced programmes when the time comes.

Also, lack of CNS adaptation doesn't really come into the equation here. Most beginners are nowhere near the threshold to really tax the CNS, the loads simply aren't great enough.

Taking smolov jr for bench as a recently mentioned example, most people would actually be better off increasing their benching frequency to two times a week rather than jump in at 4.

 

[mrthingyx]

Come on, icecold: I've seen you complain about how sore Smolov left you... there's the comment above about my fun with RSR... the trepidation about these routines as they were supposedly built around juiced lifters "back in the day..."

You know what this "elitist BS" is.

 

[icecold]

Sorry, I don't, or at least I don't come across it. My point is that there are genuine reasons to not do them, which is true regardless of the stupid reasons.

If people really want to do them for fun then that's fine, but I don't think it's particularly wise.

I don't understand the relevance of the soreness comment. I don't think how hard these programmes are is a reason not to do them. Doing 40 reps of squats is also really hard and that's universally a terrible idea!

 

[mrthingyx]

Sorry, I don't, or at least I don't come across it. My point is that there are genuine reasons to not do them, which is true regardless of the stupid reasons.

If people really want to do them for fun then that's fine, but I don't think it's particularly wise.

I don't understand the relevance of the soreness comment. I don't think how hard these programmes are is a reason not to do them. Doing 40 reps of squats is also really hard and that's universally a terrible idea!

The 'soreness' comment is in relation to the fact that something that causes the top, non-assisted lifter on this forum to complain must be quite something, indeed.

Regarding the reasons for not doing them, I'm not going to (and do not) disagree with any of them. I do think, however, it would be interesting for Jon33 to have a go.

 

[Jon33]

Think I'm going to go with a 5/3/1 routine - simple but something a bit different to 5x5.

I've downloaded a couple of apps to have a look to track the weights and one thing I've noticed isn't adding up (literally) it seems to think if I can do a 75kg benchpress for 5 reps then the max should be 87kg... well that certainly isn't the case! I can't get anywhere near 87. Should I ignore this and go with a lower 1 rep max?

 

[GSVBagpuss]

However, probably most importantly, as a noobie (99% of people reading this) you don't NEED to resort to these more advanced protocols to make progress.

For reference, when in your mind does someone become not a beginner? I know it will vary by person but something like a 1.5xBW bench, 2xBW squat and 2.5xBW DL?

 

[mrthingyx]

Think I'm going to go with a 5/3/1 routine - simple but something a bit different to 5x5.

I've downloaded a couple of apps to have a look to track the weights and one thing I've noticed isn't adding up (literally) it seems to think if I can do a 75kg benchpress for 5 reps then the max should be 87kg... well that certainly isn't the case! I can't get anywhere near 87. Should I ignore this and go with a lower 1 rep max?

Then you aren't trying hard enough. So try harder. You can always be a bit conservative with the programmes as it will let you get a feel for them. Have a play and see what works.

For reference, when in your mind does someone become not a beginner? I know it will vary by person but something like a 1.5xBW bench, 2xBW squat and 2.5xBW DL?

That would be pretty epic lifting!

ExRx have done tables on lifter 'class' versus their expected lifts here, but as you point out, mileage may vary.

The general indicator for 90% of the gym population is when arm circumference exceeds that of the lifter's leg.

 

[Jon33]

Then you aren't trying hard enough. So try harder. You can always be a bit conservative with the programmes as it will let you get a feel for them. Have a play and see what works

Will do! Thanks for the help

 

[Begbie]

Think I'm going to go with a 5/3/1 routine - simple but something a bit different to 5x5.

I've downloaded a couple of apps to have a look to track the weights and one thing I've noticed isn't adding up (literally) it seems to think if I can do a 75kg benchpress for 5 reps then the max should be 87kg... well that certainly isn't the case! I can't get anywhere near 87. Should I ignore this and go with a lower 1 rep max?

Great article on t-nation regarding 5/3/1, which explains everything you need to know. It's done in 4 week blocks, so week one 3*5 but your last set is max effort reps. Get a hold of the spreadsheet and log your reps, it will make sure you progress on the following four weeks.

So if week one bench on third set you get 10 reps on the next week one you should really be as close to that as possible. I'd ignore it's guesstimate on your 1rm it doesn't mean much.

Also ignore boring but big. I do an extra couple of sets on each compound when I've finished though mainly for some extra volume.

Went to link the article, only to realize it has a lot of swearing! Not hard to find though.