The 5 year plan to £50k - Accomplished.

Caporegime
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How can you both not see that the truth is somewhere in the middle?

Do you think all the fletchers from Ye Olde Times were in complete control of their (professional) future when the rifle was invented and nobody needed arrows anymore?

But also do you think they just said "Well that's fate" and starved, or they went on to learn new trades?

No-one with half a brain cell is saying that luck plays zero part in the matter... but clearly the importance of it vs putting your own blood, sweat and tears into making things work, and for taking the initiative and grabbing opportunities, is being massively overstated, and I suspect used an excuse or grounding reason by those who haven't made (in their own minds) a success of themselves.
 
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Caporegime
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I also hope that "no-one with half a brain cell" is saying that as long as you put blood sweat and tears into it you're guaranteed success - because you aren't. There are plenty of examples of people going broke despite putting all the hard work in, because of factors outside of their control.
 
Caporegime
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But the point he is making is that there will be just as many WITH the aptitude, inclination, luck or ability that won't be as successful as those with the same amount of aptitude, inclination, luck or ability, because.....life.

It is a hard subject for people to argue over as it is going to be extremely rare for someone who is successful to admit that it was due to luck or that they didn't work all that hard for it. To look at this objectively is an extremely hard thing to do.

I'd say Taleb is/was fairly successful and is currently making a career out of pretty much putting forward this argument.

I've noticed a few posters seem to think that anyone realising chance pays a significant factor in our lives hasn't benefited from it themselves. I earn more than the OP and like the OP has described with his career progression there have been certain events out of my control that have helped immensely.. from starting off in the right team, getting exposure to the right projects, chance meeting with a senior manager in the pub leading to me being able to get a move to another team I wanted to and bypass HR etc..

I've got a very smart friend who ostensibly had the same job title as me, has a 1st class degree, masters, speaks several languages... unknown to this friend they didn't get placed in the job they initially wanted and were moved to another department not due to lack of ability but because one manager noticed the language skills and so put them in a different client facing role... their team was badly run, department not as well respected or compensated... friend had a much different experience over a few years then quit to pursue something else. That friend is as capable or more so than me but simply had, as a result of chance, an experience that was completely different to mine and suffered a huge opportunity cost over the few years they were they. That dept is now run by someone else who carries a lot of weight in the company, is gaining more prominence and would actually be a good place to start these days.

I feel I've got to re-emphasize that yes hard work, skills (both soft and tangible) etc.. are generally necessary to increase our chances of success... you can say that a hard working person who knuckles down and studies is pretty likely to do OK in life... but chance is massively underestimated and the illusion of control seems to be something plenty of people fall victim to.

I'd go as far as to say chance is the biggest factor when you look at the tail end of sucess - people who've got to the top of a company say... plenty of smart people work at X big bank... the guy who gets to C level or senior MD level isn't just the smart guy with the skills (obviously those are necessary, he's competing against smart skilled people) - but he's they guy who happened to get placed in the right department at the time he started, who's asset class happened to be doing better than some others, who had the right sort of manager initially, maybe had people ahead of him leave at the right time in his career which allowed for quicker progression than usual. Obviously you'd need to be very good and get noticed etc.. but of the pool of thousands of smart people working at these places the idea that the best candidate will rise to the top just doesn't work... it might well be one of the top % but there needs to be a bit of luck involved to to get ahead of the competition and that luck element is hugely significant.

Frankly in business even more so... certain key decisions/risks that shape the whole business could go either way.... there are only going to be so many big ones and the sample is likely small enough that chance plays a huge role. At the tail end of this distribution are the events that payed off way way over expectation... no one necessarily has an ev in the many millions when initially taking a risk with a small company... getting a result in the many millions can largely be down to chance... you might well have made a +ev decision, done all the right things, worked hard... but when you get unexpected disproportionate payoffs they can be down to external factors, being in the right place at the right time etc... Frankly someone like Alan Sugar could quite easily be running a successful estate agents with a few of his own buy to let properties on the side had chance events taken a different course.
 
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Caporegime
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I also hope that "no-one with half a brain cell" is saying that as long as you put blood sweat and tears into it you're guaranteed success - because you aren't. There are plenty of examples of people going broke despite putting all the hard work in, because of factors outside of their control.

Nope, no-one is saying that, very little in life is "guaranteed"... but obviously the chances of getting something you put blood, sweat and tears into far outweighs the alternative.
 
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Caporegime
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So your point is: You're less likely to get something if you don't try to get it.

Whereas the other point is: Sometimes even when you do try you won't get it and conversely sometimes you will get it without really trying at all.

Uh.. duh?
 
Caporegime
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So your point is: You're less likely to get something if you don't try to get it.

Whereas the other point is: Sometimes even when you do try you won't get it and conversely sometimes you will get it without really trying at all.

Uh.. duh?

Not at all, the conversation started well before you chipped in, and the point me and Housey etc were making was that people are placing too much emphasis on luck, and not enough value on your own individual drive and determination to succeed, as well as the qualities, or often lack of, that help or stop you getting to where you want to be.
 
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Nix

Nix

Soldato
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Not at all, the conversation started well before you chipped in, and the point me and Housey etc were making was that people are placing too much emphasis on luck, and not enough value on your own individual drive and determination to succeed, as well as the qualities, or often lack of, that help or stop you getting to where you want to be.

Being that the conversation essentially started from a place of 100% agency, I'd say the debate actually was brought in, closer to reality. People recognise chance, that was only intention.

We've had these threads before and no-one ever concedes how chance plays into their lives, because you know, that would mean they're not really oh-so-fantastically-amazeballs. People don't like admitting that they're not in control. The ego doesn't like it.

I'd say aside from the rather perplexing hair-splitting, people are mostly on the same page. The only difference is the scale of chance involved.

e.g. Agency: 99% Chance: 1% vs. Agency: 80% Chance: 20%, etc.

I have not seen a single poster say anything like Agency: 30% Chance: 70%.
 
Soldato
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Agencies are a different ball game, they have a much higher degree of chance:

Normal situation:
You apply to company: a% your skillset is deemed applicable (you control), b% chance, mood of assessor, position in CV queue etc..
At interview: c% you are good enough (you control), d% the interviewer is a **** (chance)
Post Interview: e% chance the company offer you an acceptable contract (chance)

Agency:
You apply to company: a% your skillset is deemed applicable (you control), b% mood of assessor, position in CV queue etc.. (chance)
Agency staff: c% they are competent at their job (chance), d% they have a good relationship with the company you are applying to, e% they understand your motivations and skillset (partly you, partly chance), f% the agency worker is able to convince the company to take you to interview (chance)
Interview: g% your skillset and experience is applicable (you control), f% chance the interviewer is a **** (chance), g% the agency hasn't lied about your ability to the company to get the interview (chance)
Post Interview: h% The Agency screws up the process by demanding excessive fees (chance), i% chance you get offered an acceptable contract (chance), j% chance the agency pass this onto you in a timely manner and communicate the details correctly (chance)
 
Caporegime
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We've had these threads before and no-one ever concedes how chance plays into their lives, because you know, that would mean they're not really oh-so-fantastically-amazeballs. People don't like admitting that they're not in control. The ego doesn't like it.

That is purely your own bias and bitterness speaking, because I have not got that impression form a single person who posted in this thread who said they are now in a good position. Yours is the only (and clearly bruised and battered) ego that i can see in this thread.

e.g. Agency: 99% Chance: 1% vs. Agency: 80% Chance: 20%, etc.

I have not seen a single poster say anything like Agency: 30% Chance: 70%.

99% chance... oh lord...
 
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Caporegime
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Judgeneo - nix isn't referring to employment agencies.

Nix - plenty of people have acknowledged the role chance plays, the main disagreement is to what extent.
 
Soldato
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I'd say by far the biggest 'chance' has already been afforded to Nix, purely by him living in the UK. A country that many people will go to all lengths to enter with nothing and then still make a success of themselves.
 
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Soldato
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Judgeneo - nix isn't referring to employment agencies.

Nix - plenty of people have acknowledged the role chance plays, the main disagreement is to what extent.

The introduction of a third party to act as an point of contact is basically the role of every form of agency to do with employment. This means that you cannot directly convince and influence the decision makers, and therefore rely on chance much more.
 
Soldato
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I'd say aside from the rather perplexing hair-splitting, people are mostly on the same page. The only difference is the scale of chance involved.

e.g. Agency: 99% Chance: 1% vs. Agency: 80% Chance: 20%, etc.

I have not seen a single poster say anything like Agency: 30% Chance: 70%.

Can I ask what you believe the %s to be
 
Soldato
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We've had these threads before and no-one ever concedes how chance plays into their lives, because you know, that would mean they're not really oh-so-fantastically-amazeballs. People don't like admitting that they're not in control. The ego doesn't like it.

Actually, it's the step from taking that chance and making it into something that makes the person an amazeball.

Most people are given the opportunity but don't take it.
 
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