The 5 year plan to £50k - Accomplished.

[Nix]

If that is your point, you're unintentionally alienating posters with a sentiment inferred by this portion of your post, specifically the part in bold:

To me that overstates this (IMO moot) chance element. Good things tend to happen to people that work hard and try hard. Few good things tend happen to those that don't. Outside of that, there are things we cannot control, but those things are rarely in themselves controlling over the entirety of one's destiny. However, if you are going to bring health into it, then that sits in a different discussion altogether and no-one would say otherwise.

I was going to say, the scale depends on how wide your focus is, but then it appears you made that connection anyway.

 

[Housey]

When I can help myself (read: when I can work out what it is I want) then I'll be able to get help. I'm not sure what you can help me with when I don't know what specific thing to ask.
That said, thank you. I will keep you in mind

Ask nothing, I'll do the asking. Blank canvas is a good starting point.

 

[Nix]

The argument about a shortage of jobs holds some merit but there are a lot of suboptimal applications meaning an opportunity is there for those who apply themselves. Apply for enough (realistic) jobs in perfect fashion and responses should come.

Just for argument's sake. How does someone in the middle of the curve (the completely non-descript Average Joe) stand out? Especially assuming that everyone else is playing the tricks of padding the CV, utilising networking and otherwise brute force methods of getting in.

This is assuming that experience is unavailable and the job is over-subscribed.

 

[toshj]

Just for argument's sake. How does someone in the middle of the curve (the completely non-descript Average Joe) stand out? Especially assuming that everyone else is playing the tricks of padding the CV, utilising networking and otherwise brute force methods of getting in.

This is assuming that experience is unavailable and the job is over-subscribed.

You're almost certainly applying for the wrong job then. If you don't have the required experience and the job is over-subscribed (presumably by a certain amount of candidates that do possess the requisite experience) then you never stood a chance. The question isn't "why did I not get that interview", but it should be "how can I make sure I get that interview in the future" - the answer is by developing the essential experience required.

Candidates generally get offered the jobs that they are relevant for (i.e. experience, compensation, availability, etc.). In certain cases, alternative candidates may be offered the job. As mentioned in a previous post, you can't go from Career A to Career C, if a requirement of Career C is to possess the experience of Career B. You need to go from Career A to Career B first.

 

[Nix]

You're almost certainly applying for the wrong job then. If you don't have the required experience and the job is over-subscribed (presumably by a certain amount of candidates that do possess the requisite experience) then you never stood a chance. The question isn't "why did I not get that interview", but it should be "how can I make sure I get that interview in the future" - the answer is by developing the essential experience required.

Candidates generally get offered the jobs that they are relevant for (i.e. experience, compensation, availability, etc.). In certain cases, alternative candidates may be offered the job. As mentioned in a previous post, you can't go from Career A to Career C, if a requirement of Career C is to possess the experience of Career B. You need to go from Career A to Career B first.

Okay, so let's assume these are entry roles and they all follow the same guidelines (employer's market) of minimum 2.1, etc.

You need one of these jobs to get the experience, but you don't have a 2.1.

What else is there? It's a needle in a haystack to find those 'easier' jobs as other candidates are also piling on them to gain employment. You're still out-matched despite setting your sights lower. Assuming everyone else is also networking, etc. Aside from putting some white-powder in with your covering letter, how do you make yourself stand out?

 

[Guest2]

I have gone from dole in 2010 to £46k as of next month.

Well done. But you are not quite there!

I am almost pulling 45k when I do a few evenings covering out of hours. Not too crappy to say I have a letter from last year that states I will go back to £20,400 when my secondment is over

Work hard and you will be rewarded. (but don't work too hard is affects your health as I know it has done with some workmates)

 

[toshj]

Okay, so let's assume these are entry roles and they all follow the same guidelines (employer's market) of minimum 2.1, etc.

You need one of these jobs to get the experience, but you don't have a 2.1.

What else is there? It's a needle in a haystack to find those 'easier' jobs as other candidates are also piling on them to gain employment. You're still out-matched despite setting your sights lower. Assuming everyone else is also networking, etc. Aside from putting some white-powder in with your covering letter, how do you make yourself stand out?

Most things are a consequence of your prior actions. Didn't work hard enough/not intelligent enough/didn't enjoy your degree enough to hit a 2:1?t Then you'll have to suck it up and work harder, reassess your career goals (look into other industries) or be driven enough to find an alternative route into that specific industry/company.

Contact people on LinkedIn. Research every possible firm within that particular industry and send their HR department your CV and a cover letter indicating that while they may not have X vacancy, you'd be keen to meet with them to explain why they should consider creating a vacancy for you or to keep you candidacy in mind for a later date. Even be a bit devious and indicate that you're presently interviewing with one of their (non-specific) competitors for X vacancy but that you've heard great things about their company and you'd be keen to interview with them -this can work brilliantly, companies are afraid of missing out on talent.

I've spent almost a decade now working in headhunting, and there are so many ways to get your foot in the front door. Sure there are huge elements of luck involved, as previously mentioned, but the more endeavour you show the more likely you'll find the right job/career.

 

[Nix]

Most things are a consequence of your prior actions. Didn't work hard enough/not intelligent enough/didn't enjoy your degree enough to hit a 2:1?t Then you'll have to suck it up and work harder, reassess your career goals (look into other industries) or be driven enough to find an alternative route into that specific industry/company.

Contact people on LinkedIn. Research every possible firm within that particular industry and send their HR department your CV and a cover letter indicating that while they may not have X vacancy, you'd be keen to meet with them to explain why they should consider creating a vacancy for you or to keep you candidacy in mind for a later date. Even be a bit devious and indicate that you're presently interviewing with one of their (non-specific) competitors for X vacancy but that you've heard great things about their company and you'd be keen to interview with them -this can work brilliantly, companies are afraid of missing out on talent.

I've spent almost a decade now working in headhunting, and there are so many ways to get your foot in the front door. Sure there are huge elements of luck involved, as previously mentioned, but the more endeavour you show the more likely you'll find the right job/career.

Interesting. Come to think of it, that actually happened to a friend and it really worked in his favour, with two firms squabbling over him!

Again, it obviously helps to know what industry you're involved in. Starting out, it's a little more problematic than a few years in.

For the record, I missed out on a 2.1 because depression hit me like a ton of bricks and I ended up shut down staring at walls instead of throwing my energy into revision for my finals. I had already earned a 2.2 going in to my exams, and that's what I came away with. I messed up my final exams because I was ill and then it hit me twice as hard when I couldn't find work because of it. It became a vicious cycle. That said, I'm not going to keep it a dirty secret any more and try being upfront about mitigating circumstances and play it as a strength.

 

[toshj]

Interesting. Come to think of it, that actually happened to a friend and it really worked in his favour, with two firms squabbling over him!

Again, it obviously helps to know what industry you're involved in. Starting out, it's a little more problematic than a few years in.

For the record, I missed out on a 2.1 because depression hit me like a ton of bricks and I ended up shut down staring at walls instead of throwing my energy into revision for my finals. I had already earned a 2.2 going in to my exams, and that's what I came away with. I messed up my final exams because I was ill and then it hit me twice as hard when I couldn't find work because of it. It became a vicious cycle. That said, I'm not going to keep it a dirty secret any more and try being upfront about mitigating circumstances and play it as a strength.

Depression is a difficult thing to deal with, particularly if you're away at university.

After graduating I worked my nuts off for the firm I joined. They highlighted to me the heights I could hit and responsibilities I could earn if I reached the targets they set. I did it, hit every last one of them, but it cost me more than I gained. I worked a minimum of 13 hours a day, worked weekends, only took three weeks worth of holiday in almost three years - 3 days holiday in the first 12 months - , and ultimately I reached the top (highest revenue producer in the firm out of almost 70 people). I ended up quitting 9 minutes into the following day because I'd developed such severe anxiety and stress that I could barely stand up. Was it worth it? Maybe, maybe not. Still not quite figured that one out yet.

Anxiety is obviously different to depression, but it's still a debilitating mental struggle, but if you're able to conquer it, then you know you've got what it takes to find a decent career for yourself. Dealing with depression (beating it or just managing it) is significantly more difficult than finding a good job. So in your case, if you can manage your depression or even better it, then you know you've got the determination and awareness to find yourself a good career path.

 

[Nix]

Anxiety is obviously different to depression, but it's still a debilitating mental struggle, but if you're able to conquer it, then you know you've got what it takes to find a decent career for yourself. Dealing with depression (beating it or just managing it) is significantly more difficult than finding a good job. So in your case, if you can manage your depression or even better it, then you know you've got the determination and awareness to find yourself a good career path.

I've had both, so I do understand. They can often be quite closely related.

 

[toshj]

I've had both, so I do understand. They can often be quite closely related.

They certainly can be, but not always. Throughout my periods of severe anxiety I was extremely fortunate to be quite content with my lot, even at my lowest ebb I was able to fully realise that this was something I was able to ultimately get the better of and that in itself was a ray of light. It did make me regard depression, and those who suffer from it, in a wholly new light, and I've always been thankful for not suffering from it.

I hope you enjoy your trip and come back invigorated by it. It's probably worthwhile bearing in mind that it doesn't matter if you don't know what to do with your life (in a professional sense). With as much bad luck you may have previously had, there's every chance a bit of good luck will come your way and you'll unexpectedly fall into a career you enjoy

 

[Richdog]

Interesting. Come to think of it, that actually happened to a friend and it really worked in his favour, with two firms squabbling over him!

Again, it obviously helps to know what industry you're involved in. Starting out, it's a little more problematic than a few years in.

For the record, I missed out on a 2.1 because depression hit me like a ton of bricks and I ended up shut down staring at walls instead of throwing my energy into revision for my finals. I had already earned a 2.2 going in to my exams, and that's what I came away with. I messed up my final exams because I was ill and then it hit me twice as hard when I couldn't find work because of it. It became a vicious cycle. That said, I'm not going to keep it a dirty secret any more and try being upfront about mitigating circumstances and play it as a strength.

While this has turned into a nice little Nix group therapy thread, I hope you realise it is far away from being related to the original statements you made.

 

[craptakular]

Nix with a your geography degree is it physical or human?

We have very similar degree if it is physical geography you did. Have you ever applies for things like:

Water resources partitions
Environmental positions
Town or country planning
Highways agency
Environment agency
DEFRA
Wild life trusts
Natural england
Power industry
Water industry
Fisheries
Renewables
Gis
Etc etc etc

Maybe it's time to consider being a geography teacher or primary teacher? Teach English on your travels them apply for pgce on return?

I never new what I wanted to do after university either I just feel into a professional career as they were the only offer of employment I had, I was never served with a choice in that sense. You just have to run with it and try to mold a verse you want out of your first years experience, but I started unhappy in my first job for years and for bitter. Until the point where I couldn't go in another day.

I lost 5 years of work in that job before I woke up.

NIX, please see my post above, which I don't think you responded to. Have you applied for any roles in these areas?

I would strongly suggest joining CIWEM or something similar, I think they do CPD.

YOu should be able to get a starter job from one of them if you are willing to move any where in the UK.

oh and I have a 2:2 in Geosciences and never had a problem getting a job, employers now don't even look at it.

 

[Robosapien]

I think you're going off an a tangent which I'm not discussing. I was merely discussing the luck versus agency concept that Nix has been concentrating on, not the wider problem of unemployment versus full time vacancies within the UK.

My take on it is that the randomness isn't worth taking note of at all, simply due to it's size and ability to effect everyone/everything, and that an applying candidate should just focus on what they can do to get hired.

I have to coach my friends on how to rewrite CVs, how to produce cover letters, what to say on the phone to HR/recruiters, who to contact when there's been no feedback, what to say to get yourself noticed, etc. The majority of them simply fire off a CV and wait around like a lemon, and complain when they've heard nothing back.

It's not a tangent, it's factual evidence of reality. The economic environment is quite an important external factors that has real implications for the individualist luck vs agency debate.

I appreciate that it's useful to turn a blind eye to if you want to believe that you're in control of your fate.

 

[Richdog]

I appreciate that it's useful to turn a blind eye to if you want to believe that you're in control of your fate.

Hey, if someone believing they have no control over their fate makes it easier to deal with lack of success in life, then by all means, go ahead. We all need a crutch.

 

[Dj_Jestar]

How can you both not see that the truth is somewhere in the middle?

Do you think all the fletchers from Ye Olde Times were in complete control of their (professional) future when the rifle was invented and nobody needed arrows anymore?

But also do you think they just said "Well that's fate" and starved, or they went on to learn new trades?

 

[Housey]

I don't believe any sane or right thinking person would put their entire life down to fate or luck, no one can be that migguided. The debate has centred on how much emphasis they put on its influence. I have said it has a part to play as again to deny that would be misguided, but it's influence has I believe been minimal in my own personal circumstance, not least as you move through your career. If I had sat back and left the world to come to me would I be where I am today? No. Would I have been happier with my life if I had again left the world to come to me? I doubt it. If I had better luck along the way might I have been better placed? Perhaps, but then it would all depend on how well I took advantage of the luck and really that is the crux of the debate. You can have all the luck in the world and still be an abject failure in the same way you can have very little and be hugely successful. Those are facts, though people will seek to dig into them to find luck or fates influence while at the same time choosing to ignore how they were grasped and used.

 

[Dj_Jestar]

Certainly. Though I'm willing to bet a lot you've made changes to your life based upon the influences that are outside of your control. Ergo, fate. I've done it loads - the software industry is constantly evolving with new technology that I learn about everyday. Am I in control of this evolution? The hell I am.

 

[Housey]

That is just life it is a given and focusing on everything as fate and therefore uncontrollable is frankly irrelevant. It has little influence it is just circumstance you deal with, rather than fate.

 

[Dj_Jestar]

"Fate" is, afterall, just a moniker for "that we don't control."