There are loads of vacancies, people just don't look hard enough/don't want to interrupt their lifestyles in order to obtain a new position (i.e. relocating, studying, etc.). If you want a job bad enough, you'll find one.
The 5 year plan to £50k - Accomplished.
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There are loads of vacancies, people just don't look hard enough/don't want to interrupt their lifestyles in order to obtain a new position (i.e. relocating, studying, etc.). If you want a job bad enough, you'll find one.
You're missing the point. I understand your point (please remember I don't see this in black and white and appreciate it's a heavy grey-scale), but there are myriad middle-managers who sit back doing nothing apart from massaging their own self-importance and would never dream of scrubbing some toilet-bowls for a living.
Just because anyone can do it doesn't mean that anyone does. Paying pittance for the really nasty jobs is insult to injury.
I appreciate that middle-managers may have more 'value' to their firm in terms of revenue generation, however. I also appreciate that a typical cleaner won't be able to make the tough bottom-line business calls nor necessarily understand them. I'm talking purely in terms of absurdity between 'ease' or 'pleasantness' of the job and associated pay. Why is it for example, that social and care-workers are paid so poorly?
Just to reiterate once again: I don't believe luck/chance is the primary driver. What I've been saying all along is that it isn't however, as marginal as people seem to think it is. It's always there. Just like the ticking of the clock, the world spins and chance unfolds. We don't control everything.
You seem to think I've got this idea of say Agency 10% and Luck 90%, which it's probably more Agency 80%, Luck 20%.
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It's not luck - the best candidate isn't always the right one. There are plenty of external factors during an interview process - factors implemented by the hirer, the HR department, the recruiter, you as a candidate and other candidates. There's always someone driving the process, and therefore when you think you got lucky, it was probably the recruiter or HR realising that you were the better suited candidate, but not necessarily the best candidate, and pushing your candidacy. I'd say that this isn't luck simply because it occurs in a significant amount of cases.
Not at all.
KaHn was a little abrasive and unhelpful several years ago but then I don't think he really could comprehend what I was going through and how damaging what he was saying at the time was.
Let sleeping dogs lie.
Not really. I'd say it was luck that they were hiring and thus you were able to find something. I'd very much say that was agency though. You made things happen. If they weren't employing (chance), you'd have had one or more less interviews. Not the end of the world, but this is my point about chance. You can't control those variables.
And things like that are ultimately out of your control. You're not the one making the decision! You have agency up unto that point obviously, making yourself look good and desirable. The variables once things are set in motion, the positive and negative feedbacks of interaction, etc. are not within our control. That would be down to chance and unknowns.
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There was chance of circumstances that he got that specific job sure, but there wasn't chance in his ability to take that role because the fact he did actually get it is evidence of the same (which I think renders your point entirely moot).
Soldato
There are more people unemployed than there are vacancies.
This is a fact. That is simple mathematics that won't work, and even an imbecile can see that the equation doesn't balance.
Not a sweeping generalisation on people and their lifestyles/individual circumstances or meaningless diatribe about wanting things bad enough, (which is what your post is).
But that is my point?
All I've been doing all along is pointing out that chance cannot be dismissed! It's not all "just work hard and things happen" because no matter what there are variables beyond our control and this is what I'm using as being synonymous with chance/luck.
Luck/chance factors in to everything we do. I took umbrage against people assuming that it didn't. I'm getting a little tired of everyone deliberately misinterpreting my outlook as a dejected gambler who buys a lottery ticket to pay his rent but refuses to go out and work for it.
But it happens to such a significant degree in every aspect of your life that it hardly warrants the term "luck" and is more just overwhelmingly expansive randomness that each person on the earth is a party to. Because of its massiveness and uncontrollable nature, it probably isnt work thinking about in the slightest and you (not you particularly, but the wider people) should just focus on what you can affect.
I think you're going off an a tangent which I'm not discussing. I was merely discussing the luck versus agency concept that Nix has been concentrating on, not the wider problem of unemployment versus full time vacancies within the UK.
My take on it is that the randomness isn't worth taking note of at all, simply due to it's size and ability to effect everyone/everything, and that an applying candidate should just focus on what they can do to get hired.
I have to coach my friends on how to rewrite CVs, how to produce cover letters, what to say on the phone to HR/recruiters, who to contact when there's been no feedback, what to say to get yourself noticed, etc. The majority of them simply fire off a CV and wait around like a lemon, and complain when they've heard nothing back.
Nix take one thing from this thread, I provide it as a statement of fact and I urge you, if you take nothing more from this thread, to take this....
If you make a compelling case companies will very often find a place for you. The 9 companies I approached who said come see me was not off the back of 9 adverts or to your point being lucky they had a role, a couple did most didn't. As someone who for the last 20 years on and off who has recruited people take that away and learn by it. Stop with the agency/advert crap...it IS an excuse. The debate is more about yours and others ability to make that compelling statement that compels people to listen or pass you down the line to HR, but that is a whole different debate.
You can NOT fit people, life or companies processes into boxes as outside a few corporate goliaths there is always a way to find a place for good people or people who show real aptitude to be heard and when heard recruited. I know because I've done it many times and seen it done many more.
This is why I differencite between ill formed opinion and real coal face, on BOTH sides of the fence experience.
If you make a compelling case companies will very often find a place for you. The 9 companies I approached who said come see me was not off the back of 9 adverts or to your point being lucky they had a role, a couple did most didn't. As someone who for the last 20 years on and off who has recruited people take that away and learn by it. Stop with the agency/advert crap...it IS an excuse. The debate is more about yours and others ability to make that compelling statement that compels people to listen or pass you down the line to HR, but that is a whole different debate.
You can NOT fit people, life or companies processes into boxes as outside a few corporate goliaths there is always a way to find a place for good people or people who show real aptitude to be heard and when heard recruited. I know because I've done it many times and seen it done many more.
This is why I differencite between ill formed opinion and real coal face, on BOTH sides of the fence experience.
And now we're just going around in circles
I wouldn't say it's irrelevant. I'd still say it factors in more than we give it credit for, but that's not to say I'm saying to worry about it. More just to be mindful of it, whilst concentrating on what you can. If you fail, it's not necessarily because you didn't try hard enough. Sometimes life conspires against us for the most indifferent and absurd of reasons.
More importantly, being mindful means career isn't all ego, and compassion rather than scorn can be directed to those who haven't found their way.
...to add..
The reason people are recruited ahead of you is more than often because they are potentially better, more enthusiastic and prepare better. Again I've seen many people tell me they in their own mind "should have got that job, because they were a much better fit" and they hardly ever appreciate they actually werent often for reasons that everyone else around them, bar them, clearly understands.
You can't win them all, we rarely do.
The reason people are recruited ahead of you is more than often because they are potentially better, more enthusiastic and prepare better. Again I've seen many people tell me they in their own mind "should have got that job, because they were a much better fit" and they hardly ever appreciate they actually werent often for reasons that everyone else around them, bar them, clearly understands.
You can't win them all, we rarely do.
I'll have to take your word from that as my business experience has most certainly been within the confines of a recession. Therefore, it's been cuts rather than inclusion.
As an aside, it is very difficult to get people to take you seriously when you can't offer their otherwise 'minimum' demands (I use the term like that as I appreciate demands are often grossy disproportionate to the job at hand)
I agree, and this is where agency comes in to its own as you play the numbers game. Play it right and things should unravel. However, it is going to be chance on who it is that says yes as you cannot control that.
My experience of job-hunting out of university was picking up the phone only to be told politely to **** off. It's a different beast to the 80s.
Anyway, you seem to be making a connection between me equating my personal life-experience and blanket-chance and that I'm still subscribing to a warped philosophy. I'm not. I have not. And I still do not. All I've been explaining is that chance/circumstance/the unknown/whims whatever you want to call it, means that effort/agency can only ever carry us so far, but it seems in trying to point that out I've been placed into a binary dynamic of either or.
I agree with everything you've said about cracking on. I just don't agree that chance never plays in to it or should be discounted. It's always there. Always.
I'm under no illusions why I've had such a hard time. I've been ill, there's nothing more to say about that. I wasn't on an even footing.
And now we're just going around in circles
I wouldn't say it's irrelevant. I'd still say it factors in more than we give it credit for, but that's not to say I'm saying to worry about it. More just to be mindful of it, whilst concentrating on what you can. If you fail, it's not necessarily because you didn't try hard enough. Sometimes life conspires against us for the most indifferent and absurd of reasons.
More importantly, being mindful means career isn't all ego, and compassion rather than scorn can be directed to those who haven't found their way.
I agree it factors in more than we give it credit for - given that there are 7 billion people all trying to get by and interacting, I'd say it contributes to almost all of it. But I wouldn't be mindful of it. It affects everyone differently but everyone has the same potential exposure to it, so what good can be gained from being mindful of it? It would ultimately lead to using it as an excuse, whereas it should be used as a motivational tool.
- I didn't succeed because I was unlucky. Oh well. Never mind.
- I didn't succeed because I was unlucky - that means it wasn't my fault and I should try again even harder.
If you tried your hard enough to succeed, but failed through a lack of luck, then you should have developed the required work ethic, tenacity and endeavour to be able to achieve a certain amount of success in either the same or a different area of expertise. Again, I'm not talking about you specifically here. I think a lot of it comes down to determination and perseverance - it's far too easy to give up nowadays.
I'll have to take your word from that as my business experience has most certainly been within the confines of a recession. Therefore, it's been cuts rather than inclusion.
As an aside, it is very difficult to get people to take you seriously when you can't offer their otherwise 'minimum' demands (I use the term like that as I appreciate demands are often grossy disproportionate to the job at hand)
I agree, and this is where agency comes in to its own as you play the numbers game. Play it right and things should unravel. However, it is going to be chance on who it is that says yes as you cannot control that.
My experience of job-hunting out of university was picking up the phone only to be told politely to **** off. It's a different beast to the 80s.
Anyway, you seem to be making a connection between me equating my personal life-experience and blanket-chance and that I'm still subscribing to a warped philosophy. I'm not. I have not. And I still do not. All I've been explaining is that chance/circumstance/the unknown/whims whatever you want to call it, means that effort/agency can only ever carry us so far, but it seems in trying to point that out I've been placed into a binary dynamic of either or.
I agree with everything you've said about cracking on. I just don't agree that chance never plays in to it or should be discounted. It's always there. Always.
I'm under no illusions why I've had such a hard time. I've been ill, there's nothing more to say about that. I wasn't on an even footing.
When you get back from your break email me [email protected] I'll happily give you some free career advice. I understand depression too so can probably frame it appropriately.
No, it's rather.
"I didn't succeed this time. Perhaps I was unlucky. Never-mind, let's try the next one."
When I can help myself (read: when I can work out what it is I want) then I'll be able to get help. I'm not sure what you can help me with when I don't know what specific thing to ask.
That said, thank you. I will keep you in mind.
I've realised recently that the endless struggle I've had to try and find answers has been because of the depression. Depression robs you of meaning and being to able to work out what you want. It makes you see the worst in everything. It stops you from being able to make those important decisions because your emotional state is so out-of-sync, simple things you take for granted are beyond you. When you're depressed, you just literally cannot see other perspectives. It robs you of it.
I cannot and will not beat myself up for enduring it. I've pushed and pushed to find my way out. It's a struggle very few are going to understand, but I got there. Sure I'm angry right now at the 'unfairness', but that will pass. I'm having days where rather than being ashamed I've also feeling fiercely proud of having survived. That's a good thing. I'm planning on even turning it in to a selling point for the job-hunt.
Having the energy to hit up the job-market when I'm back will make all the difference. As for my job which I'm leaving, it really did harm my recovery but I'm not going to go into the whys here. Needless to say, I'm out and I deserve some good luck.
"I didn't succeed this time. Perhaps I was unlucky. Never-mind, let's try the next one."
When I can help myself (read: when I can work out what it is I want) then I'll be able to get help. I'm not sure what you can help me with when I don't know what specific thing to ask.
That said, thank you. I will keep you in mind.
I've realised recently that the endless struggle I've had to try and find answers has been because of the depression. Depression robs you of meaning and being to able to work out what you want. It makes you see the worst in everything. It stops you from being able to make those important decisions because your emotional state is so out-of-sync, simple things you take for granted are beyond you. When you're depressed, you just literally cannot see other perspectives. It robs you of it.
I cannot and will not beat myself up for enduring it. I've pushed and pushed to find my way out. It's a struggle very few are going to understand, but I got there. Sure I'm angry right now at the 'unfairness', but that will pass. I'm having days where rather than being ashamed I've also feeling fiercely proud of having survived. That's a good thing. I'm planning on even turning it in to a selling point for the job-hunt.
Having the energy to hit up the job-market when I'm back will make all the difference. As for my job which I'm leaving, it really did harm my recovery but I'm not going to go into the whys here. Needless to say, I'm out and I deserve some good luck.
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I don't know, but that isn't the angle I'm coming from. What I'm saying is that there will be more responses than vacancies so the fact that applications outweigh vacancies doesn't tell the whole story.
As for the bar being raised, if it gets raised high enough then the person has more chance of standing out, assuming they are good enough.
The argument about a shortage of jobs holds some merit but there are a lot of suboptimal applications meaning an opportunity is there for those who apply themselves. Apply for enough (realistic) jobs in perfect fashion and responses should come.
If that is your point, you're unintentionally alienating posters with a sentiment inferred by this portion of your post, specifically the part in bold:But that is my point?
To me that overstates this (IMO moot) chance element. Good things tend to happen to people that work hard and try hard. Few good things tend happen to those that don't. Outside of that, there are things we cannot control, but those things are rarely in themselves controlling over the entirety of one's destiny. However, if you are going to bring health into it, then that sits in a different flavour of discussion altogether and no-one would say otherwise.