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** The AMD Navi Thread **

Soldato
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Posts
7,071
I'm seeing two conflicting arguments at the moment. Either FPS is king or ray tracing is king. You can't have both together...yet. So for now I'd take FPS and see what happens with RT in two more generations.

On that basis with faster Navi 20 coming and more recent resources having been directed towards Zen I think AMD aren't doing too badly. If, as some are speculating, they are preparing for a price war with Nvidia that could be very interesting. Having very small dies and a slight performance lead (subject to 3rd party reviews) they look to have a fair amount of wiggle room on price.

Tl;dr Don't count AMD out yet, they may have a strategy we can't see yet.
 
Caporegime
Joined
18 Oct 2002
Posts
32,618
AMD pushed ahead in the CPU space because Intel has had it's finger up it's butt for the last 5 years.

Nvidia has not made that mistake, they are consistently innovating and out innovating AMD, so it's really hard for AMD to actually beat them if they don't slow down their innovation and RnD.

At this point, we have to admit that AMD can't out innovate Nvidia and they're going to keep struggling until Nvidia makes a mistake like Intel did


This is the point people seem to miss. Intel ran a veyr different game to Nvidia and the 2 aren't comparable at all.

Intel likely did reduce R&D into CPUs and instead made a focus into broader markets and different hardware. That is a sound business decision when you are dominating. Intel is very large and has the resources and experience in many different product markets. The second issue Intel has is they develop their own silicon fabrication. For a number of reason they ran in to problems so 10nm is greatly delayed. Nvidia on the other hand can pick and choose between TSMC, Samsung and GF. Looks like they might go with samsung who will be quicker to market EUV 7nm+ , which not only offer substantially more performance than the current TSMC 7nm but is actually cheaper and easier to produce with likely higher yields once ready.

Nvidia didn't cut GPU R&D, they increased it massively. While Nvidia's product portfolio is broader, they all relate to GPUs. Deep learning, HPC & datacenter, automotive and autonomous vehicles, all leverage the same technology and all support each other. As the HPC and DL parts continue to diverge in hardware form consumer gaming, there may become a time when R&D budgets get split more heavily but currently Nvidia still enjoys a relatively tight R&D focus. This has allowed Nvidia to continuously innovate and make big gains in performance, efficiency and innovative features.

People might complain that RTX is a gimmick because it doesn't perform fast enough, but this is extremely short sighted thinking. Every big step in graphics came along with massive performance issues. when pixel shaders were introduced all we got was pretty demos but non of the hardware was really up to par for a couple of generations. yet ATi made a big impact because they could run tech demos faster on a 9700pro than Nvidia could. Nvidia will gain tremendously with RTX. They are forcing AMD's hand here, forcing them to diverge additional R&D they hadn't anticipated and may not have to hand. They are getting game developers on nvidia's side, they are setting the narrative. While RTX is exposed under industry standard APIs in Direct X and Vulcan, the actual implementation in hardware will vary and that means optimizations and design approaches to RTX in games may differ. Developers are getting used to how nvidia does RTX , and that will reap benefits down the line.
Moreover, Nvidia wins the marketing and PR, e.g. Punk2077 just announced with full RTX will already mean people on the fence between 5700 and 2070 have one more reason to buy nvidi'a at equal price and performance.
 
Caporegime
Joined
18 Oct 2002
Posts
32,618
I'm seeing two conflicting arguments at the moment. Either FPS is king or ray tracing is king. You can't have both together...yet. So for now I'd take FPS and see what happens with RT in two more generations.

On that basis with faster Navi 20 coming and more recent resources having been directed towards Zen I think AMD aren't doing too badly. If, as some are speculating, they are preparing for a price war with Nvidia that could be very interesting. Having very small dies and a slight performance lead (subject to 3rd party reviews) they look to have a fair amount of wiggle room on price.

Tl;dr Don't count AMD out yet, they may have a strategy we can't see yet.


AMD's smaller dies are on a much more expensive process with lower nominal yields, so the price difference is not at all clear cut. IMO, if AMD really had much of a production cost advantage they could have priced Navi more competitively. It has to be noted that Navi 10 is the same die size as Polaris, but the number of cores has stayed similar. So Navi is far more expensive to produce than Polaris.

As for Navi 20, that is really a very different decision. Navi 20 will be going against whatever nvidia has next, the 30x0 cards produced on samsung's EuV 7nm+ process which is superior to the current TSMC 7nm. navi20 should bring RTX, but that that will be AMD's first attempt while Nvidia will be on round 2.


I think the only hope for AMD is if they have made some substantial architecture changes that will help future scalability but for some reason they can;t realize that now. Perhaps TSMC's 7nm process has some major problems so we wont see much benefit until AMD can move to a new process.
 
Soldato
Joined
6 Feb 2019
Posts
17,589
AMD's smaller dies are on a much more expensive process with lower nominal yields, so the price difference is not at all clear cut. IMO, if AMD really had much of a production cost advantage they could have priced Navi more competitively. It has to be noted that Navi 10 is the same die size as Polaris, but the number of cores has stayed similar. So Navi is far more expensive to produce than Polaris.

As for Navi 20, that is really a very different decision. Navi 20 will be going against whatever nvidia has next, the 30x0 cards produced on samsung's EuV 7nm+ process which is superior to the current TSMC 7nm. navi20 should bring RTX, but that that will be AMD's first attempt while Nvidia will be on round 2.


I think the only hope for AMD is if they have made some substantial architecture changes that will help future scalability but for some reason they can;t realize that now. Perhaps TSMC's 7nm process has some major problems so we wont see much benefit until AMD can move to a new process.

That is the scary bit.

The stars are aligning for another Pascal jump for Nvidia.

Nvidia is moving from 12nm to 7nm+ and their cards are super efficient already. They can either make another huge leap in efficiency or another major leap in performance.

It’s entirely possible we can have gaming gpus running under 100w and running games at 1440p 60fps+ without any issue - these cards can be single slot with just one fan.

And on the other end of the scale - the 3080ti could be 50% to 80% faster than the 2080ti and that’s raw raster, who knows how they reconfigure RTX cores
 
Caporegime
Joined
18 Sep 2009
Posts
30,112
Location
Dormanstown.
I'm seeing two conflicting arguments at the moment. Either FPS is king or ray tracing is king. You can't have both together...yet. So for now I'd take FPS and see what happens with RT in two more generations.

On that basis with faster Navi 20 coming and more recent resources having been directed towards Zen I think AMD aren't doing too badly. If, as some are speculating, they are preparing for a price war with Nvidia that could be very interesting. Having very small dies and a slight performance lead (subject to 3rd party reviews) they look to have a fair amount of wiggle room on price.

Tl;dr Don't count AMD out yet, they may have a strategy we can't see yet.

How can this be?
Unless the 5700XT/5700 comes out cheaper, or with higher performance we've seen what they're offering.
A 2070 class card (Slightly faster albeit) at 2070 class pricing.

Then a 2060 class card at 2060 class pricing.

If anything their secret plan is to force us all to consoles.
 
Soldato
Joined
6 Feb 2019
Posts
17,589
They clearly did win the narrative war.

AMD gave in and was forced to admit Navi won’t have ray tracing but actually they are going to catch up next year.

Gamers on all sides complained when Navi announced no rayvtracing for 2019.

You have developers making public statements that they love RTX and Ray Tracing and major AAA like Cyberpunk launching with it.
 
Soldato
Joined
20 Jun 2011
Posts
3,675
Location
Livingston
Lol people really are horribly resentful when it comes to this stuff. Someone buys Nvidia then defends their choice aggressively, or someone buys AMD then defends their choice aggressively. In both cases both sides are only half listening. Anyone going against the grain is seen as an inconvenience and must be undermined using a condescending or derogatory manner.
 
Soldato
Joined
25 Nov 2011
Posts
20,639
Location
The KOP
They clearly did win the narrative war.

AMD gave in and was forced to admit Navi won’t have ray tracing but actually they are going to catch up next year.

Gamers on all sides complained when Navi announced no rayvtracing for 2019.

You have developers making public statements that they love RTX and Ray Tracing and major AAA like Cyberpunk launching with it.

Like pointed out in the video AMD is hiding something for 2020. Xbox and playstation will launch with Ray Tracing PC gamers will get Navi 20

How I see Ray tra is its good and all but I in no rush to go and get it. From the games shown show far one stands out for me and that is metro the rest are just meh I can wait.

I can totally see the direction AMD is going/building here.
 
Caporegime
Joined
18 Oct 2002
Posts
32,618
Like pointed out in the video AMD is hiding something for 2020. Xbox and playstation will launch with Ray Tracing PC gamers will get Navi 20

How I see Ray tra is its good and all but I in no rush to go and get it. From the games shown show far one stands out for me and that is metro the rest are just meh I can wait.

I can totally see the direction AMD is going/building here.


The direction AMd is going is catch-up and deflection to hide their shortcomings.
 
Associate
Joined
19 May 2012
Posts
1,297
I have had a RTX 2070 for a while now and didn't see ray tracing until yesterday.

Due to Microsoft Ultimate Pass which I upgraded to for a £1, I downloaded Metro Exodus.

What a massive difference, and it's a game changer to my eyes in regards to this game.

I also ran it on my HDR TV in 4K and it looks even more incredible.

Compared it to the Xbox One X version and the Ray Tracing on PC is wonderful.

I would rather play it in SDR with RT than in HDR without. Fortunately I can do both.

I really hope AMD push RT features soon to really get this thing going.
 
Soldato
Joined
25 Nov 2011
Posts
20,639
Location
The KOP
The direction AMd is going is catch-up and deflection to hide their shortcomings.

Yeah sure they will release later on PC and that isn't a bad thing, they will have had time to get this write with hardware and software.

They about to release Ray tracing to the world, where half the console population haven't even heard of nvidia.

This time next year we look back and who cares if amd was a year or two late to the pc market.
Amd strategy is plain in sight. They already just taken DLSS out of the picture based on what was shown and talked about.
 
Caporegime
Joined
18 Oct 2002
Posts
32,618
Yeah sure they will release later on PC and that isn't a bad thing, they will have had time to get this write with hardware and software.

They about to release Ray tracing to the world, where half the console population haven't even heard of nvidia.

This time next year we look back and who cares if amd was a year or two late to the pc market.
Amd strategy is plain in sight. They already just taken DLSS out of the picture based on what was shown and talked about.



Ray-tracing on consoles is far from confirmed. the only word has been some kind of ray-tracing for audio.
And what console players know about IHVs is irrelevant, none of them have even heard of AMD so what does it matter?



AMD's strategy is in plain site. Caught off guard by Nvidia, minimal R&D, still struggling to make headway with efficiency, and ignoring market share in return for profits.
 
Associate
Joined
6 Dec 2013
Posts
1,877
Location
Nottingham
Care to quote relevant parts of that stupid long document to back up that 2 parts on the same node argument? Note my comment was two different size dies on the same process?

I could read the whole thing but seen as you already have...

since you cant be bothered, heres a shorter one:
Simply put: it’s just not worth making denser chips, and it’s getting increasingly difficult to do so. The steps required to manufacture chips have increased in quantity and complexity due to how gigantic the wavelengths of light are in comparison to the transistors they are outlining. Taking 193nm wavelengths down to 7nm requires a lot of clever trickery to work – GloFo CTO, Gary Patton, even went as far to call 7nm immersion lithography an “extreme sport” in an interview with IEEE Spectrum.
In turn, this increases time and money spent on every single product leaving a fab. Not only that, but the more complex a manufacturing process, the higher chance there is of something going wrong, and subsequently, the lower a fab’s yields will be. As you can imagine, that’s not too great when you plan on mass producing an entire CPU architecture for the immensely large computing market, and without angering shareholders.


you are both missing the important part of making the cips out which is why you both seem to be under the impression its cheaper and easier.
note: my original argument was based on this these quotes which you both now seem to be twisting to suit your angle.

here:
https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/posts/32785178
and here:
https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/posts/32785198
 
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Soldato
Joined
25 Nov 2011
Posts
20,639
Location
The KOP
Ray-tracing on consoles is far from confirmed. the only word has been some kind of ray-tracing for audio.
And what console players know about IHVs is irrelevant, none of them have even heard of AMD so what does it matter?



AMD's strategy is in plain site. Caught off guard by Nvidia, minimal R&D, still struggling to make headway with efficiency, and ignoring market share in return for profits.

For one AMDs name is all over the biggest gaming event each year that console players tune in to E3

I fully understand you here for the defence of nvidia but its in plain sight what is happening here and its coming across as damage control from yourself.

Forget about nvidia none of that matters, it's only a matter of time till amd drops ray tracing to the mainstream.

Again about Ray tracing you simply trying your best to hide the fact it's coming by saying console will only do audio lol
DP get of the high horse, keeping these posts for the big navi 20 reveal.

I agree with a lot of the points made here
https://gizmodo.com/a-nerdy-theory-about-why-ps5-and-project-scarlett-arent-1835390270
 
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