The Banter Thread

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Don
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While I don't disagree with the majority of what you've said, you are glossing over the major point to all of this. Man Utd have just made an operating profit of ~£100m yet they're not benefiting from it in anyway.

Around the time of the bond issue I read that the amount of money Utd have spent on interest and bank fees under the Glazers, equated to the amount of money received in gate receipts for something like 3 seasons. In effect, without the debt, Utd fans could have watched Utd play every home game for 3 seasons for free.

I'm not sure if it was your intention but it kind of reads as if you're defending the ~£40m costs attached to the bond issue too. Utd have paid £40m for the privilege of paying more interest than they were on the bank debt and allowing the Glazers greater freedom to do as they please with Utd's cash.

I know you're suggesting that the fact the Glazers haven't yet withdrawn any of the £70m they're entitled to proves that they have other plans for that money, I'd be surprised if they don't eventually withdraw it. Based on what's being reported about all the Glazers other business interests back in the states and with their PIK notes spiralling, it doesn't make sense for them not to withdraw the money. After all we know that Utd have a credit facility open to them at a much lower interest rate than what the Glazers are currently paying on their PIK notes.
 
Soldato
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While I don't disagree with the majority of what you've said, you are glossing over the major point to all of this. Man Utd have just made an operating profit of ~£100m yet they're not benefiting from it in anyway.

Around the time of the bond issue I read that the amount of money Utd have spent on interest and bank fees under the Glazers, equated to the amount of money received in gate receipts for something like 3 seasons. In effect, without the debt, Utd fans could have watched Utd play every home game for 3 seasons for free.

I'm not sure if it was your intention but it kind of reads as if you're defending the ~£40m costs attached to the bond issue too. Utd have paid £40m for the privilege of paying more interest than they were on the bank debt and allowing the Glazers greater freedom to do as they please with Utd's cash.

I know you're suggesting that the fact the Glazers haven't yet withdrawn any of the £70m they're entitled to proves that they have other plans for that money, I'd be surprised if they don't eventually withdraw it. Based on what's being reported about all the Glazers other business interests back in the states and with their PIK notes spiralling, it doesn't make sense for them not to withdraw the money. After all we know that Utd have a credit facility open to them at a much lower interest rate than what the Glazers are currently paying on their PIK notes.



well we haven't spent a huge deal (last season)28million +8 million (noted as after 30th of June) on player aquisitions, we've also earmarked 12 million for improving Carrington, we've also had a very successful last few years, increased our cash reserves. Admittedly ticket prices have increased sharply but still remain in line with other clubs in similar league positions. Personally I think the only way to see what we have to spend is by waiting till the coming summer when the market will be far more attractive to clubs like United. The 40 million one of expense is open to debate, it has however removed the risk of any H&G RBS situation and allows them to have far greater control of their own future.

As far as I can see to date they have not used a single penny of United's money to service the PIKS. They've purchased c20% of the PIKS for themselves at a vastly reduced coupon rate. EBITDA is increasing, cash is increasing, interest payments are due to remain constant, in 6 years time when it is time to refinance the real value of the 500million debt will have decreased (not Baz but anyone who is going to question me on this think if you stored £500 under your bed for 6 years time then got it out would you still be able to buy as much with it then as you would today) and hopefully they can get more favourable terms. I'd still expect them to take their carve out at some point as to me it makes sense and would appear to be better value but for some reason they haven't currently. It remains to be seen what they do in the transfer market but we are in a stable position where the business is increasing in value and appears to have the facility to invest in the squad.

Sure I'd like to be debt free but at the end of the day that has associated costs and despite what the media and no doubt MUST/Red Knights come out with there's no real pressure on the Glazers to sell up currently or in the forseeable future they've got an income of £280mill and need to service a debt of £45mill interest payments.

The test as I say will come in the next 18 months with an aging squad but these results aren't bad.
 
Don
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Again, I'm not going to disagree with you (some of what you say is subjective though) but you're talking like an accountant for the Glazers and not a Utd fan.

Surely as a Utd fan you object to the fact that Utd have gone from a debt free club which made masses of money (all of which ploughed back into the club), to a club which although is more profitable than before, spends all it's profit on servicing the debt and costs associated with the Glazers takeover.

edit: There's an interesting point made in an article on the BBC; Liverpool have been valued at 8.5 times it's operating profit, if you done the same with Utd they've be valued at around about £850m, which is maybe why the Red Knights never made that £1bn bid let alone the £1.5bn the Glazers are rumoured to want. If the 8.5 times operating profit is a fair valuation of Utd's value, it's not a great deal more than the total group debt (close to £750m now).
 
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Soldato
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it doesn't though. I'd love to be a debt free club, however we have to face the reality of the situation and that is that the debt we have is well managed. The one area where the Glazers got burned and it's similar to the H&G thing but it's had less of an impact on us is that they hedged their bets on the interest rates not banking on the crash. That's cost us 40million in refinancing to the bond.

I've got no problem with people saying it'd be better for the fans if the Glazers weren't here but I don't like the doomsayers who've been using headline figures to tell us why we're going to collapse for the last 5 years.
 
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Redknapp to be the next Liverpool manager
If Liverpool receive a 9 point penalty deduction for going into administration and happen to draw against their rivals Everton, there's no way I can see Harry Redknapp turning down an opportunity to move to Anfield, should the position of manager open up.

You can see it now, "When I came here, we had -2 points from 8 games!".

:D
 
Caporegime
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Again, I'm not going to disagree with you (some of what you say is subjective though) but you're talking like an accountant for the Glazers and not a Utd fan.

Surely as a Utd fan you object to the fact that Utd have gone from a debt free club which made masses of money (all of which ploughed back into the club), to a club which although is more profitable than before, spends all it's profit on servicing the debt and costs associated with the Glazers takeover.

edit: There's an interesting point made in an article on the BBC; Liverpool have been valued at 8.5 times it's operating profit, if you done the same with Utd they've be valued at around about £850m, which is maybe why the Red Knights never made that £1bn bid let alone the £1.5bn the Glazers are rumoured to want. If the 8.5 times operating profit is a fair valuation of Utd's value, it's not a great deal more than the total group debt (close to £750m now).

The problem is Liverpool are considered to be valued at 8.5times the operating profit, winnings makes a significant impact on that. Utd are genuine contenders(or have been) for many seasons for the league and champs league, winning both vs coming second in both competitions swings profit vs loss a HUGE amount. I think 2nd in the champs league makes a pretty big difference aswell.

So while Utd could get an extra 40-50mil in winnings spread over a few years, Liverpool won't.

Likewise Liverpool have a far far smaller stadium which for the club to expand will mean a MASSIVE investment, and that plays on Liverpools overall value aswell. UTD have already made that investment.

IE call Liverpool worth £600mil or whatever 8,5x Y amount is(not sure what Y is for Liverpool at the moment), but for future growth you want a £400mil stadium. That means it will cost you £1.2billion or more after interest on the stadium.

UTD already have assets worth immensely more than Liverpool, and the what you would assume is a noticeably higher percentage chance of winning things which = higher income, more fans = more money and winning more things = more fans.

Every club is different with many different factors, just because one club is worth 8.5times their turnover, doesn't mean all are, at all, or even close.

As it seems to have been suggested, a lot of that 80mil loss is one off fee's, of which 20mil is projected to be turned around in a year anyway. Business is business, average losses/profits over 3 or 5 years gives a far more accurate idea of real profitability. I mean Arsenal are hugely profitable, but look at the season the Arsenal Group spent 400mil alone and it won't look pretty, we made an extra 180mil or so this year, thats also not a fair representation.

Within 2 seasons you expect Giggs, Scholes, VDS, Neville to be gone, which will save the club probabl 25-30mil a year in wages. Replace them with very good but 15 year younger players on half the wages and you're still saving a load every year. There will be good and bad times, when you've got a small young cheap squad and times when you have an old expensive huge squad.

UTD frankly can ditch 3-4 defenders and buy a single replacement and be stronger, IE lose o'shea/brown, Neville, Rafael and get one high quality right back in, the team is better and saving 10mil a year. Giggs doesn't play that much and frankly, is ineffective, Nani/Valencia starting with a youth replacement for the future, 7-8 mil saved, Scholes, needs replacing, will still save cash on wages year in year out. Sell Anderson, Carrick who again don't play much and are useless, way out on top.

The utter madness the whole league is experiencing at the moment is wage bills going up 5-8% a year at the top clubs, its insane and completely unsustainable.

I don't think Liverpool really have the same numbers of players as Utd on huge wages, nor the ability to ditch 4 old players on 4-5mil a year each, Gerrard, Torres, Caragher, Cole are the only people I think would really be in that catagory and none are about to retire.
 
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Don
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I think I know why you're always so wrong when it comes to talk about finance. You're plucking random figures out of the air.

There is not a £40-50m difference between winning the league and cl and not winning them. The difference in money from the league is minimal (~£500k per position) and from the CL, you'd be lucky if the difference between a quarter final and winning was more than £10m (including the extra gate receipts).

Regarding the cost of buying Liverpool and the investment needed; again stop making up numbers, it's likely to be half of what you're guessing. However yes, an argument could be had that because of the investment needed in Liverpool you may lower your valuation. Equally the opposite argument could be made that the potential growth at Liverpool over a club like Utd would make you value it higher.

I'm not going beyond that becuase the rest of what you wrote is subjective (and rubbish).
 
Associate
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The biggest issue in the purchase Liverpool FC is the stadium.

Utd and City had new ones. Arsenal and Celsea have a London postcode. The land Anfield is on is not worth a lot, I love Liverpool went to uni there etc but the area around Anfield is not the best.

So it makes sense to rennovate if at all possible, but either way ill be big bucks, (200m+)
 
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There is not a £40-50m difference between winning the league and cl and not winning them. The difference in money from the league is minimal (~£500k per position) and from the CL, you'd be lucky if the difference between a quarter final and winning was more than £10m (including the extra gate receipts).

But when you're not in the Champions League, let alone have the potential to get to a quarter final, the difference is easily £40-50m. Champions League revenue makes a massive difference to club earnings.
 
Don
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But when you're not in the Champions League, let alone have the potential to get to a quarter final, the difference is easily £40-50m. Champions League revenue makes a massive difference to club earnings.

And where did DM say that?

He said that Utd could potentially earn a further £40m had they won the league and CL instead of finishing 2nd and getting knocked out of the CL in the quarters. That's simply not the case.

And no, the difference between no CL and quarters of the CL isn't easily £40-50m. Getting to the group stage is worth in the region of £20m and then maybe a further ~£5m for getting to the quarters. It all depends on your % of the tv money which is based on your league position from the previous year. IIRC Liverpool earned around £20m (tv and prize money) for getting to the CL quarters a couple of seasons back and then a further £8m from gate receipts. Because of the increased games, those gate receipts would almost certainly be cancelled out by a decent run in the europa and it would be a fairly safe guess to say that at least £5m of prize and tv money would also be recouped.

edit: btw, these figures are taken from club accounts, not DM or the Daily Mail. Unfortunately (like with Utd's 'losses') people just take the headline figures from nonsense newspapers rather than understanding the reality.
 
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Soldato
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New-boy Van der Vaart, who signed for Spurs from Real Madrid on transfer deadline day, notched a penalty against Wolves on his home debut on Saturday.

And ahead of Tottenham's visit of the Gunners at White Hart Lane this week, the Dutch midfielder said: "Spurs are the bigger club."
 
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