Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (June Poll)

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

  • Remain a member of the European Union

    Votes: 794 45.1%

  • Leave the European Union

    Votes: 965 54.9%
  • Total voters
    1,759
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Moses said:
The thing that annoys me more than anything is that the main reasons people want to leave is that they want 'control of our borders' and they don't want to have to abide by rules 'imposed by the EU'... but the Brexit politicians often suggest we could be like Norway, or Switzerland, or join the EEA, etc... all of which would include the free movement of people as we have now. Obviously there are ways we could leave the EU and 'take back control'... but there's no guarantee that'll happen.

If people vote to leave the EU, then what I've suggested happens, it'll be deeply annoying because I won't be happy (I'd prefer to remain), and many Brexiteers wouldn't be happy (given they wouldn't get what they thought they were voting for).
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I get your frustration but even an EEA solution which is almost a default fall back puts an absolute cap on the degree of integration we are subject too which is not the case within the EU despite what Cameron's homeopathic renegotiation claims.
Also once out of the EU the mechanisms for leaving the free movement area are wider and more explicitly within our direct control, although it has to be conceded they would mean leaving the EEA.
For a country like the UK the EEA may be the initial fallback position whilst a longer more involved renegotiation takes place. After all if migration continues to be a problem for the electorate they, one assumes, would chose a Government that reflects that desire.
Out will mean out but the arrangements available mean we would continue to keep and would want to keep some of the arrangements without being tied to ever closer union, which looks very likely if the Euro is to be saved.
 
Sadly Ros Altmann, I don't recognise big business (representing the top 5%) funding the Tories being 'fine' while Labour being funded by organizations representing millions of people somehow isn't fine, as being very democratic either.
 
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MichaelAwkward said:
What was the situation like before the EU?
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Spain closed the border to Gibraltar from 1969 to 1985. This was in response to Gibraltar overwhelmingly stating to remain British in a referendum. iirc Spain joined the EU in 1986.

Cross-border relationships are ok at a personal level (Bear in mind approx 7-9k Spaniards cross daily into Gibraltar for employment), however Spain's Central government has publicly stated they will look into tighter border controls, closures, toll roads upon entering Spain from Gibraltar. There are constant territorial water incursions by the Spanish Guardia Civil, incessant and pointless border queues, blocks in Gibraltarian sporting organisations joining the relevant world sporting bodies, accusation of Money laundering, drugs entry zone into Europe, etc. I could go on for ages but this can be easily looked up on Google.

Not good at all. Ironically enough when things come to a head, the slow EU process does more to protect us in Gibraltar than anything else, UK government included.
 
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Witor said:
Spain closed the border to Gibraltar from 1969 to 1985. This was in response to Gibraltar overwhelmingly stating to remain British in a referendum. iirc Spain joined the EU in 1986.

Cross-border relationships are ok at a personal level (Bear in mind approx 7-9k Spaniards cross daily into Gibraltar for employment), however Spain's Central government has publicly stated they will look into tighter border controls, closures, toll roads upon entering Spain from Gibraltar. There are constant territorial water incursions by the Spanish Guardia Civil, incessant and pointless border queues, blocks in Gibraltarian sporting organisations joining the relevant world sporting bodies, accusation of Money laundering, drugs entry zone into Europe, etc. I could go on for ages but this can be easily looked up on Google.

Not good at all. Ironically enough when things come to a head, the slow EU process does more to protect us in Gibraltar than anything else, UK government included.
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Why are Spain being such knobs about it all? Is Gibraltar really worth the hassle?
 
Witor said:
Spain closed the border to Gibraltar from 1969 to 1985. This was in response to Gibraltar overwhelmingly stating to remain British in a referendum. iirc Spain joined the EU in 1986.

Cross-border relationships are ok at a personal level (Bear in mind approx 7-9k Spaniards cross daily into Gibraltar for employment), however Spain's Central government has publicly stated they will look into tighter border controls, closures, toll roads upon entering Spain from Gibraltar.

Not good at all. Ironically enough when things come to a head, the slow EU process does more to protect us in Gibraltar than anything else, UK government included.
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UK government should start putting tariffs on millions of British holiday makers and when their tourism starts to collapse we will see who has the biggest balls.
 
phil675 said:
Why are Spain being such knobs about it all? Is Gibraltar really worth the hassle?
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It controls access to the Mediterranean Sea, so yeah basically. Spain's intransigence on Gibraltar is a concern, but it also means that we cannot give in over their threats - makes us look weak. Anyone know if the Med is cold enough for our Type 45 destroyers to work? :p
 
This popped up on my facebook feed. It's a long read, but very good, it's about One American woman's experience of UK border control when she was attempting to enter the country to speak at a conference. Leavers are fond of claiming that losing free movement won't make any difference to us, that we'll still find it easy to travel to EU countries, and it won't make any difference. This is how our country treats people from our good friend and ally, the USA, do you really think that it will be different for us trying to get into Europe if we leave the EU?

Free movement matters. It's a huge benefit for all British citizens.
 
Mr Jack said:
This popped up on my facebook feed. It's a long read, but very good, it's about One American woman's experience of UK border control when she was attempting to enter the country to speak at a conference. Leavers are fond of claiming that losing free movement won't make any difference to us, that we'll still find it easy to travel to EU countries, and it won't make any difference. This is how our country treats people from our good friend and ally, the USA, do you really think that it will be different for us trying to get into Europe if we leave the EU?

Free movement matters. It's a huge benefit for all British citizens.
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Ah so, proper border controls :D
 
Moses said:
Erm, isn't migration at the top of issues according to polling? That and 'the economy'? Then laws from the EU right up there? I'm obviously not saying every Brexiteer holds those views, but it's what the main concerns are for most, no? I don't think many cite the harmonisation of company law, the EU tax identifier number, etc...
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Immigration/border control yes, but how the EU is run (i.e. being anti democratic, clear path to a superstate etc) is a significant factor as well which the remain camp don't like to focus on. This Guardian link (can't find anything better right now) says that's #2 in that survey, and it's constantly being brought up by many on the leave side. For me personally it's way more important than immigration.
 
Mr Jack said:
This popped up on my facebook feed. It's a long read, but very good, it's about One American woman's experience of UK border control when she was attempting to enter the country to speak at a conference. Leavers are fond of claiming that losing free movement won't make any difference to us, that we'll still find it easy to travel to EU countries, and it won't make any difference. This is how our country treats people from our good friend and ally, the USA, do you really think that it will be different for us trying to get into Europe if we leave the EU?

Free movement matters. It's a huge benefit for all British citizens.
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I go through US airports regularly and they have very stringent requirements. Are you suggesting the US would be better off (or that it would be supported by people in the US) if they were to loosen border controls? I highly doubt that....
 
The anti democracy argument et al is pretty much down to a misunderstanding of how the EU operates because of misleading information.
 
Lt_Red said:
Well, I have had a go at it. I don't propose to know all the facts and figures, and I certainly have not captured every issue and I ran out of steam as I got towards the end but I have tried to be as objective as I can and lay down the pro's and cons for both sides. I hope this does not upset anyone here too much but here goes:

IN:

Pros:
  • We retain free access to the single market, currently around 40% of our exports
  • There is no risk of trade tarrifs being imposed to goods and services coming in or out of the UK.
  • EU economic migrants can come to the UK and work with no need for work visas, green cards etc, and Vice Versa. This means in the UK we have plenty of labour to undertake jobs that lets say some of our youth are not too keen on doing, like construction labour, sanitary services etc, and means skilled, enterprising and educated immigrants can come here and make a good living without worrying too much about the red tape.
  • Likewise, EU citizens can come and study in the UK, and vice versa, with no hastle.
  • The EU can impose directives on the UK that will in effect normalise regulation across all member states, making trade between EU nations more compatible.
  • European agreements allow simpler exchange of security information and arrest warrants for EU citizens across all member states.
  • The EU organises trade deals with countries outside of the EU, that allow us access to those markets on the same terms as other member states.
  • The EU Court of Justice has supreme and final say in matters of law over all member states and provides recourse for citizens who may disagree with any ruling of the state.

Cons:
  • The EU is stagnating in terms of trade with itself and the rest of the world.
  • EU directives have shorn into areas of regulation that far extend beyond trade, and are largely influenced by the body of lobbyists working in Brussels on the behest of big business.
  • We currently have little chance of influencing these directives outside of the European parliament, (where we are quite often outvoted) and this influence will diminish over time as more member states join.
  • The EU is on the march towards a Federal state, staying in will no doubt draw us with it. Some may say this is a good thing, although could ultimately lead to the demise of all EU member states national identity.
  • DCam’s agreement to limit the UK in terms of “ever closer union” has the condition that will lose the UK its veto on issues that affect the draw towards federal Europe.
  • The EU supreme court is often sticking its nose in where it does not belong…
  • We cannot control the number of EU migrants in terms of numbers and spread of educated/uneducated (for want of a better way of putting it), and the more EU immigrants that come, the less commonwealth/rest of the world immigrants can be accepted. This can and does lead to a shortage of highly skilled workers (Surgeons, Nurses, Architects etc).

OUT:

Pros:
  • We disconnect ourselves from EU directives entirely. Meaning we are no longer forced to implement those which do not affect our trade goods and services with the EU. This will allow us to go through a process of deregulation, potentially making UK business more competitive. Note: This “could” affect worker protection, such as working time, holiday pay, health and safety etc, however our standards are already often higher than those imposed by the EU and we for the most part came up with them anyway so I highly doubt they would be deregulated so I will discount this and mention it no further…
  • We would regain supreme ruling over our legislative and legal statutes and precedents.
  • We would be released from EU trade negotiations and be able to organise trade agreements with the rest of the world on our own terms.
  • We would be fully able to control our borders better thereby controlling immigration to ensure that we could pick and choose the immigration we need (high skill/low skill and where they came from) and the numbers we can sustain, allowing us to plan better our public services such as the NHS, schools etc).
  • We no longer would have to pay our membership fee (which is big - REALLY BIG) and this money could be used internally for whatever we choose.
  • We will not be drawn into a federal Europe, European taxes, vat, laws, EU army etc etc.

Cons:
  • It would take time to agree trade deals with the EU and the rest of the world. In this period of transience there would likely be instability – for how long and how extreme is frankly anyones guess.
  • Forming any trade deal with the EU in particular would likely be long and protracted (especially if they get the hump that we have left).
  • UK Citizens would lose free migration/education access to the EU, and would require Visas and work permits, green cards etc and would have to present passports at borders again (just as we had to before).
  • Brexit has the potential to destabilise the EU as a whole. Read into that what you will, but look at Greece, the rise of the far right in europe...

Crikey...
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Thank you Lt_Red very much appreciated , I've kept the full quote in my reply so it hopefully doesn't get lost in all the replies to this thread.

Thank again for taking the time to write those points down
 
Mr Jack said:
This is how our country treats people from our good friend and ally, the USA, do you really think that it will be different for us trying to get into Europe if we leave the EU?
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This would be the same 'good friend and ally' that sent its [admittedly outgoing] leader over a few weeks ago to threaten - and make no mistake, it was a threat, albeit very diplomatically-worded - the UK electorate to vote in a way that just happens to suit American-owned multinationals?

The same 'good friend and ally' that only really gives a toss about the UK when it suits their interests or they want someone to hold their hand while they bomb another country?
 
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