Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (June Poll)

[PlacidCasual]

The business about reforming trade deals, the general principal of presumed continuation should allow for the UK if it so choses to maintain the same terms with any countries/blocks that exist with the EU. If the process is followed correctly the deals would continue unless one part actively chose to repudiate the deal.
So how many of those trade partners would chose to break deals with the UK out of spite? I assume not many.

I think the argument about us losing existing trade deals that the Eu already has is a Remain red herring and I'm mighty surprised Vote Leave aren't doing more to counter it.

 

[Judgeneo]

The anti democracy argument et al is pretty much down to a misunderstanding of how the EU operates because of misleading information.

That's not true. The people don't know who they elect, and who they elect can't initiate legislation. The people who do initiate legislation can't be removed by the people.

Its a Byzantine bureaucracy.

 

[PaulB]

The UK is the EU's biggest market - they aren't going to shun that in the event of a Brexit.

Germany aren't going to suddenly stop selling us BMW's and Audi's. Likewise the US and China aren't going to stop buying Jags and Range Rovers. (* Other products are available )

I look at the likes of Switzerland, Norway and Iceland - although Norway probably the nearest example to the UK as they were in the EU, but left.

All 3 are in the top 20 richest countries in the world, all 3 have low unemployment rates and trade very successfully with the EU and the rest of the world.

They are a good example of what the UK could and should aim to be like outside of the EU.

And they can vote the people out who make their laws if they don't like it.

Inside the EU, you can't vote them in and you can't vote them out.

Goes off to eat some Lindt chocolate.

 

[Mr Jack]

All 3 are in the top 20 richest countries in the world, all 3 have low unemployment rates and trade very successfully with the EU and the rest of the world.

All three have free movement.

And they can vote the people out who make their laws if they don't like it.

No, they can't. Because all three are bound by EU laws they have no part in making. For as long as we are part of the EU we're at the table in negotiations and represented by our directly elected MEPs. If we end up with an Iceland/Norway/Switzerland deal we are bound by their laws but we can't change them or make them. I fail to see any way in which this is an improvement.

 

[Mr Jack]

That's not true. The people don't know who they elect, and who they elect can't initiate legislation. The people who do initiate legislation can't be removed by the people.

The people who can initiate legislation are representatives of our democratically elected governments and accountable to the democratically elected EU parliament.

 

[Mulder]

The anti democracy argument et al is pretty much down to a misunderstanding of how the EU operates because of misleading information.

The concept of a democratic deficit in the EU is well established and has been written about extensively. It's not undemocratic, it's actively ant-democratic. The EU parliament is the only one in the world that cannot initiate or repeal legislation, the Commission has all the power and is completely unelected, they regularly ignore the will of people in referendums etc.

This article sums it up pretty well.

There's a reason voter turnout for MEP elections has decreased every single year since it started, people understand it's a pointless vote.

 

[Mulder]

The people who can initiate legislation are representatives of our democratically elected governments and accountable to the democratically elected EU parliament.

Do you get a direct payment from the EU every time you write this stuff?

 

[Six6siX]

I look at the likes of Switzerland, Norway and Iceland - although Norway probably the nearest example to the UK as they were in the EU, but left.

All 3 are in the top 20 richest countries in the world, all 3 have low unemployment rates and trade very successfully with the EU and the rest of the world.

They are a good example of what the UK could and should aim to be like outside of the EU.

Yes they trade successfully with the EU - at a significant cost. And have no say over anything that impacts them in regard to this. This isn't a model we should be aiming for.

 

[Avenged7Fold]

Do you get a direct payment from the EU every time you write this stuff?

He should do, educating the misinformed is a public service

 

[bayo000]

Do you get a direct payment from the EU every time you write this stuff?

Do you receive payment from Aaron Banks every time you disagree with accurate post about EU?

 

[w1lliam]

An article by the economist

"So Brexiteers may hope instead for a bespoke deal for Britain that gives access to the single market without EU rules, free movement of people or budget contributions. But this is a delusion. The EU cannot be generous to a post-Brexit Britain for fear that others (including the EEA) might demand the same. As evidence, consider what happened when the Swiss voted in early 2014 to restrict migration from the EU. The EU has refused even to discuss it: if the Swiss impose restrictions, they will lose access to the single market immediately"

Brexiteers living in ****oo land if they think they can force the EU to accept terms.

 

[Mulder]

The people who can initiate legislation are representatives of our democratically elected governments and accountable to the democratically elected EU parliament.

He should do, educating the misinformed is a public service

Do you receive payment from Aaron Banks every time you disagree with accurate post about EU?

If the EU is so democratic then why does our very own House of Commons accept it has a problem with Democracy, here. It quotes:

The paper acknowledges the EU’s ‘democratic deficit’ and considers the causes of this.

And goes on:

The main characteristics are:

• The increased use of qualified majority voting (QMV – about 74%) for the adoption of legislation in the Council;
  
• Limiting Member States’ powers by removing their veto in the Council of Ministers;
  
• Expanding the policy areas in which the EU has a role, sometimes excluding any action by Member States (EU ‘exclusive competence’);
  
• An increase in executive power and a decrease in national parliamentary control with deeper EU integration.

And goes on:

• The EU’s executive, the Commission, is unelected;
  
• The EP is too weak compared with the Council and Commission;
  
• EP elections are not really ‘European’ elections and turnouts are low;
  
• The EU is too distant from voters;
  
• The EU adopts policies that are not supported by a majority of EU citizens;
  
• The Court of Justice makes law rather than interpreting it;
  
• There is a lack of transparency in the Council’s adoption of legislation and in certain appointments (e.g. EU Commissioners);
  
• EU law has primacy over national law and constitutions.

 

[The IPB]

An article by the economist

"So Brexiteers may hope instead for a bespoke deal for Britain that gives access to the single market without EU rules, free movement of people or budget contributions. But this is a delusion. The EU cannot be generous to a post-Brexit Britain for fear that others (including the EEA) might demand the same. As evidence, consider what happened when the Swiss voted in early 2014 to restrict migration from the EU. The EU has refused even to discuss it: if the Swiss impose restrictions, they will lose access to the single market immediately"

Brexiteers living in ****oo land if they think they can force the EU to accept terms.

Which kind of shows the EU for what it is doesn't it?

Power hungry. Controlling.

 

[Mr Jack]

The concept of a democratic deficit in the EU is well established and has been written about extensively. It's not undemocratic, it's actively ant-democratic. The EU parliament is the only one in the world that cannot initiate or repeal legislation, the Commission has all the power and is completely unelected, they regularly ignore the will of people in referendums etc.

The Commission doesn't "have all the power"; the Council has the most power. The EU is, after all, still primarily a club of nations. No other international club has anywhere near the level of democratic accountability that the EU has. It isn't perfect; but it's a damn site better than it used to be, and a damn site better than any comparable organisation.

This article sums it up pretty well.

I thought this was interesting:

It is no wonder that the legitimacy of the European Union has been shrinking in recent years: trust in the EU swiftly slumped from 57% in 2007 to 31% only 5 years later. The impression of European citizens that “my voice counts” fell from 39% in 2004 to 26% in 2011. Opinion polls regularly find that the expectation that the EU will reduce unemployment is high and this hope is deceived just as often. Eurobarometer 82 states that a majority thinks that “the worst is still to come”.​

Funny, I think, that the author chose to to ignore the most recent years in Eurobarometer 82 which show that all those values have recovered since the low points he mentiones (a trend that's continued since). Funny also that while he mentions that trust fell from 2007 to 2012, he fails to mentioned that it has never fallen below trust in national governments and has recovered since. Funny that he fails to mention that positive views of the EU have always out-polled negative views.

It's almost like he is deceptively cherry picking data to meet his argument.

 

[oulton]

Well, I'm leaving for holiday tomorrow and the useless shower haven't managed to get my postal vote to me in time, so no vote for me. *******s.

Same, and I registered for it on the 10th of May!

 

[Six6siX]

If the EU is so democratic then why does our very own House of Commons accept it has a problem with Democracy, here. It quotes:



And goes on:

You missed this bit:

In the context of future EU Treaty reform, it considers possible remedies for the democratic deficit, including those proposed by the UK Government.

So it is democratic, to a point. It also acknowledges more can be done to reform it whilst remaining in. Nice impartial use of a source there

 

[PaulB]

Yes they trade successfully with the EU - at a significant cost. And have no say over anything that impacts them in regard to this. This isn't a model we should be aiming for.

We also trade with the EU at significant cost and MEP's have pretty much no power at all to change or propose anything.

 

[bayo000]

If the EU is so democratic then why does our very own House of Commons accept it has a problem with Democracy, here. It quotes:



And goes on:

They're just deflecting attention elsewhere so people don't notice that House of Commons is not really democratically elected in the first place.

How many votes does one require for a single seat and how many for 56 seats?

 

[Six6siX]

We also trade with the EU at significant cost and MEP's have pretty much no power at all to change or propose anything.

Except they do

 

[Mulder]

So it is democratic, to a point. It also acknowledges more can be done to reform it whilst remaining in. Nice impartial use of a source there

The paper points out potential "remedies" , how does that show it is democratic to a point?