Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (June Poll)

[Mr Jack]

Which kind of shows the EU for what it is doesn't it?

Power hungry. Controlling.

So if I make a deal with you and then you break your side of the bargain you think it would power hungry and controlling of me to stop holding up my side? Let's say we agree you can walk across my lawn on your way to work if I can use your bridge to get to the other side of the river on my way to work - according to you if you stop letting me cross the bridge, it would be power hungry and controlling of me to stop you walking across my lawn?

Switzerland signed a deal with the EU; if it stops honouring that deal, the EU is entirely within it's rights to stop giving them the access that the deal agreed.

 

[bayo000]

Which kind of shows the EU for what it is doesn't it?

Power hungry. Controlling.

It's not really any different to you leaving your local gym and them not letting you use their equipment anymore. How do you think the other members would feel if you'd still get free access.

 

[Six6siX]

The paper points out potential "remedies" , how does that show it is democratic to a point?

The people who can initiate legislation are representatives of our democratically elected governments and accountable to the democratically elected EU parliament.

The fact that it doesn't meet expectations and has proposals to improve it doesn't change the fact that it is, by design, democratic.

 

[PaulB]

Except they do

MEP's can't initiate legislation, propose legislation or repeal legislation.

 

[eatcustard]

[*]UK Citizens would lose free migration/education access to the EU, and would require Visas and work permits, green cards etc and would have to present passports at borders again (just as we had to before).
.

One little problem, when you get to France and show your passport/get it stamped etc, you will be able to travel all over the EU due to Schengen visa.

So no problems here

 

[b0redj0rd]

Question Time was a hoot last night. The 'Remainers' are getting more and more worked up and mental. Izzard being a prime example.

WE ARE ALL BRUSSELS.

 

[Superficial]

Well, I'm leaving for holiday tomorrow and the useless shower haven't managed to get my postal vote to me in time, so no vote for me. *******s.

You must mean the German postal service:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...u-referendum-postal-votes-feared-lost-germany

Thousands of British citizens fear their votes in the EU referendum could have got lost in the post after Germany’s postal service said its workers were confused by the format of pre-paid envelopes sent out to Britons living abroad.

A spokesperson for Germany’s postal service, Deutsche Post, said that while the pre-paid envelopes were valid under the Internal Business Reply Service (IBRS) scheme, many of its employees had rejected the envelopes and told voters to pay postage instead.

 

[KillBoY_UK]

This popped up on my facebook feed. It's a long read, but very good, it's about One American woman's experience of UK border control when she was attempting to enter the country to speak at a conference. Leavers are fond of claiming that losing free movement won't make any difference to us, that we'll still find it easy to travel to EU countries, and it won't make any difference. This is how our country treats people from our good friend and ally, the USA, do you really think that it will be different for us trying to get into Europe if we leave the EU?

Free movement matters. It's a huge benefit for all British citizens.

If there's any sort of money involved its counted as paid work in the it don'st take much to find out.

I remember getting my bag searched and interview flying into japan as I was tired and gave stupid answer the reason to travel (while being nervous as it was my first time there and flying by myself + going to customs etc) I was annoyed at the time but was mostly my own silly fault. though I understood why was held back in the end. I didn't write a massive blog post about it.

Now I know to have proper paperwork for when I travel abroad (which is rarely) and not to give silly answers to serous and necessary questions.

 

[Mr Jack]

Can I ask a question,

I've always planned on retiring in the EU, as does my mum in the near future, how will your collection of state pension be effected living in the EU if we exit?

Something else on this, I just discovered today: if you retire to most countries in the world, your pension does not go up with inflation/etc. but is, instead, fixed at the value paid when you first collect. This does not apply in the EU (+a few) at the moment because of EU rules but may apply in future if we Brexit so it could make people retiring to Europe considerable worse off.

 

[Mr Jack]

I remember getting my bag searched and interview flying into japan as I was tired and gave stupid answer the reason to travel (while being nervous as it was my first time there and flying by myself + going to customs etc) I was annoyed at the time but was mostly my own silly fault. though I understood why was held back in the end. I didn't write a massive blog post about it.

As is detailed in the post, she did look up the rules, as did the conference. She was only refused because rather than being given the money by a UK company, she was paid via a German company. But, to be honest, that's the point here. Right now, you can stroll into anywhere in the EU (+a few) for any reason what-so-ever; if we Brexit you will use that right and people from the UK will face this kind of nonsense when travelling to Europe.

 

[Mr Jack]

Well, I'm leaving for holiday tomorrow and the useless shower haven't managed to get my postal vote to me in time, so no vote for me. *******s.

Can you give a key to someone you know and get them to forward your vote to your hotel?

 

[{T5K}TT]

The anti democracy argument et al is pretty much down to a misunderstanding of how the EU operates because of misleading information.

Actually, it seems it is you who are suffering from misunderstanding.

From the EU's own website:

"A new team of 28 Commissioners (one from each EU Member State) is appointed every five years." (Bold added for emphasis)

http://ec.europa.eu/about/index_en.htm

This is exactly the problem. The Commissioners are appointed, NOT elected. The Commission is not democratically accountable but wields significant power.
The fact that the EU Commissioners are not democratically accountable, and that a few years ago reform to make them democratically accountable was strictly ruled out should cause anyone who values modern liberal democracy a great deal of concern. It took the people centuries to get the vote and just look how easily it’s signed away.
I would like it to be different, but the EU's basis is not a democratic one. It is hard to overstate the value of democratic accountability. It seems to me that voting to leave the EU is one way to restore some democratic accountability to UK politics.

 

[Nate--IRL--]

Actually, it seems it is you who are suffering from misunderstanding.

From the EU's own website:

"A new team of 28 Commissioners (one from each EU Member State) is appointed every five years." (Bold added for emphasis)

http://ec.europa.eu/about/index_en.htm

This is exactly the problem. The Commissioners are appointed, NOT elected. The Commission is not democratically accountable but wields significant power.
The fact that the EU Commissioners are not democratically accountable, and that a few years ago reform to make them democratically accountable was strictly ruled out should cause anyone who values modern liberal democracy a great deal of concern. It took the people centuries to get the vote and just look how easily it’s signed away.
I would like it to be different, but the EU's basis is not a democratic one. It is hard to overstate the value of democratic accountability. It seems to me that voting to leave the EU is one way to restore some democratic accountability to UK politics.

Appointed by Whom?

Nate

 

[V F]

As is detailed in the post, she did look up the rules, as did the conference. She was only refused because rather than being given the money by a UK company, she was paid via a German company. But, to be honest, that's the point here. Right now, you can stroll into anywhere in the EU (+a few) for any reason what-so-ever; if we Brexit you will use that right and people from the UK will face this kind of nonsense when travelling to Europe.

Hey, screw democracy though. As long as everyone can move freely with no hassle. Fist pump brosif.

 

[KillBoY_UK]

As is detailed in the post, she did look up the rules, as did the conference. She was only refused because rather than being given the money by a UK company, she was paid via a German company. But, to be honest, that's the point here. Right now, you can stroll into anywhere in the EU (+a few) for any reason what-so-ever; if we Brexit you will use that right and people from the UK will face this kind of nonsense when travelling to Europe.

I take by that you rather there be no border controls at all in the world? Such things are very very necessary or do you have something else in mind. For every one person who has a bad experience at border controls there are probably tens or hundreds of thousands who have no issues what so ever.

 

[Hagar]

A question for Labour. If we stay in and their intention is not to do anything to restrict EU immigration, they have said that some areas should receive support to cope with the additional burdens to health services, housing, jobs etc..

Where will this additional money be found and how will the affected areas be identified and prioritised?

Sounds like another Labour wheeze to pretend to respond, add to the public purse, create another bureaucracy and redistribute money to little effect. I am sure that the average person would not notice its worth.

 

[{T5K}TT]

Appointed by Whom?

Nate

The whole point of democratic accountability is that we the people can vote in and vote out individuals who sit at the top of the food chain, and who make policy. Just imagine if Cameron was appointed and we could not vote him out?

The EU Commissioners are appointed: We can not hold them to account. The people can not hold them to account, no matter their screw ups. That's bad for policy. The old tired and lame reply "but they are appointed by democratically elected politicians" does not wash at all.

 

[Mr Jack]

This is exactly the problem. The Commissioners are appointed, NOT elected. The Commission is not democratically accountable but wields significant power.

Commissioners are appointed by the democratically elected nation states, the president is chosen on the basis of the elections to the EU parliament (Juncker is the current president because he was the choice of the EPP which won the most seats in the EU parliament), and the entire commission is accountable to the EU parliament which can - and has - dismissed it.

The fact that the EU Commissioners are not democratically accountable, and that a few years ago reform to make them democratically accountable was strictly ruled out should cause anyone who values modern liberal democracy a great deal of concern.

Do you understand why it was rejected? It was rejected because the democratically elected national governments did not want their sovereignty impinged by the EU. The EU cannot become more democratic without also making nation states less sovereign. This is the compromise at its heart.

It seems to me that voting to leave the EU is one way to restore some democratic accountability to UK politics.

Leaving the EU won't bring new democratic power to the UK, it'll reduce our influence. We'll still need to deal with the EU but instead of having direct democratic representation, we'll be entirely dependent on dark room negotiations between governments. And if we re-enter the EEA, we'll end up bound by rules we now have no say on at all. I do not see how this is more democratic.

 

[Mr Jack]

I take by that you rather there be no border controls at all in the world? Such things are very very necessary or do you have something else in mind. For every one person who has a bad experience at border controls there are probably tens or hundreds of thousands who have no issues what so ever.

It would be better for us if we could enter every country in the world with the ease we can enter the EU. Do you not agree?

 

[eatcustard]

It would be better for us if we could enter every country in the world with the ease we can enter the EU. Do you not agree?

As we dont live in the perfect world, no it would not be good