Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (June Poll)

[McBain]

Scaremongering my friend.

Same was said back in 2008-2009, the most severe downturn hit the WORLD ever. We were down -1% on 2008 and -5.2% on 2009. Since 2010 we are up.

Everyone forgot that, and they are talking about "disaster, DOOM we going to lose 1.4%-4.5% until we recover". BS.

We have ONE OFF opportunity until the end of times, to get OUT of the EU.
There is going to be no future referendum, and we know that the EU goes for federalization as soon as the end of the year. And DC abolished our right to veto the federalization in February, in favour to get nothing, just smoke and mirrors (of very bad quality also).

Yes WE gave up our right to veto the federalization of the EU. So the unelected will continue governing this country, of which imposed 59% of the legislation on this country the last 8 years.

And I do not pull the numbers of facts off a hat. Paxman found so, on a documentary while looking the national archives.


Also nothing stops the economy to shrink. The world economy is in tatters at the moment, and we are going to see another recession soon affecting the whole world.

Closing because we have short memories. When Alistair Darling went to bail out the banks, with the sensible method he did, the EU commission was complaining. But so be it. We did it.
Greece, who came to the same situation as us, couldn't bail out banks as we did. The Tax payers paid for the bank debts, while the banks still belong to private owners (mostly German banks), and the Greek tax payer didn't obtain even 1% of the shares nor any guarantees that will EVER get the money back from the banks. While we in UK almost nationalised the banks, and we sell them now, making profit on top.

That is how the EU works my friend. To the interest of the core elite.

But but but, GDP innit.

 

[Six6siX]

Scaremongering my friend.

Same was said back in 2008-2009, the most severe downturn hit the WORLD ever. We were down -1% on 2008 and -5.2% on 2009. Since 2010 we are up.

Remind me, were we in or out of the EU whist experiencing growth since 2010? What were the reasons for global economy crisis? What logic is there in purposefully disadvantaging ourselves and making everyone that already feels the crunch suffer more? We have some of the lowest unemployment levels in years, the economy is strong and we are in a better position than a lot of other countries - because of our position in the EU.

Everyone forgot that, and they are talking about "disaster, DOOM we going to lose 1.4%-4.5% until we recover". BS.

What makes you think something that has been reported by a majority of economists, a large number of businesses and organisations is BS? It is a fact that GDP will suffer. This is already happening. No one is saying we won't recover but to put ourselves back to 2008/09 - another recession - whilst losing preferential terms with our largest trading partner means we are likely to experience slower growth and it will take longer for that recovery to happen. That's logic. I personally don't want to go through a decade of high unemployment, inflation and interest rate issues, cuts and everything that comes with a recession. Do you have your own set of reliable forecasts based on trends and figures you care to share about how we will do post exit? Or is it more pie in the sky emotive wishful thinking about taking our country back?

We have ONE OFF opportunity until the end of times, to get OUT of the EU.
There is going to be no future referendum, and we know that the EU goes for federalization as soon as the end of the year. And DC abolished our right to veto the federalization in February, in favour to get nothing, just smoke and mirrors (of very bad quality also).

More emotive drivel. We also have a one off opportunity to stay in the EU. But no one is leading with that. Ignoring the official campaigns that often lead with doom and gloom, there are a lot of benefits to being part of the EU that are being ignored here. What are you taking about federalisation for?

Yes WE gave up our right to veto the federalization of the EU. So the unelected will continue governing this country, of which imposed 59% of the legislation on this country the last 8 years.

Ah. This is starting to make more sense now. You're one of those 'but the unelected'.. Types. Why do you think the EU is unelected and why do you think we don't have a say over what happens in our country?

Yes there is a lot of EU legislation - funnily enough a lot of it is superseded or supported by UK Law and the vast majority of it is actually to our benefit and protects us as people from a number of things - including our own government!

And I do not pull the numbers of facts off a hat. Paxman found so, on a documentary while looking the national archives.

I'm sure you wouldn't pull numbers out of a hat to support your argument. That'd be daft. I suggest that you interpret these numbers to support your emotive, misguided view of the EU and unsupported claims that the UK is better off out.

Also nothing stops the economy to shrink. The world economy is in tatters at the moment, and we are going to see another recession soon affecting the whole world.

Actually the economy is quite strong. Some economists suggest a dip is around the corner but if we take that as truth, it suggests that from experience we need to stay with the EU because that's how we best recovered, surely?

Closing because we have short memories. When Alistair Darling went to bail out the banks, with the sensible method he did, the EU commission was complaining. But so be it. We did it.
Greece, who came to the same situation as us, couldn't bail out banks as we did. The Tax payers paid for the bank debts, while the banks still belong to private owners (mostly German banks), and the Greek tax payer didn't obtain even 1% of the shares nor any guarantees that will EVER get the money back from the banks. While we in UK almost nationalised the banks, and we sell them now, making profit on top.

That is how the EU works my friend. To the interest of the core elite.

I literally have no idea what you're on about here. Where did the money come from to bail out the banks? Where do you think the profit will go if we sold the banks? And why would we do that?

Can you explain your thoughts in a structured manner with facts and evidence to back them up?

I'd suggest leaving out all the emotive arguments and anything to do with sovereignty.

 

[Uther]

Do I expect to lose money if we leave? Yes
Do I care? No

 

[Mulder]

Short term Brexit cost has been put at 4.5% of GDP in the most adverse scenario. The range of values is 1.4% to 4.5% of GDP.

That would be lost permanently. That gives a quantifiable cost in terms of tax revenues every year as well as there being the cost to households in businesses in lost income.

2017 will be a recession year in the most adverse scenario before GDP recovers to normal growth levels in 2021. In the most optimistic scenario growth slows down to 0.8% in 2017 before recovering.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36561720

The idea that the UK would have more money by leaving the EU is simply wrong.

The question is whether that permanent cost to the UK economy is worth the other supposed benefits of leaving the EU.

Then there are the long term growth costs which are a lot harder to quantify, although the consensus is that it will be negative.

You know that every single bank, over the past 3-4 years, has got Government borrowing cost forecasts completely and utterly wrong? Every single bank. And not even for just a year or two into the future (or out many more years as a lot of Remain doom mongering is) but even for 3, 6, 9 months into the future? A lot of clients just don't listen at all to banks on rate forecasts, and rightly so.

Now why and how could they get it so wrong? Firstly it's impossible to predict these things with any kind of accuracy (ask a former chancellor) and secondly there's often a motive. If a bank can say to a client "well every expert bank agrees, rates are going up soon and by next quarter we think they could be X" they can push a product then and there and use that "expert foresight" to try and boost their P&L.

Similar story here. Of course the IMF and Goldman want the UK to stay in the EU, the IMF has a significant interest in Greece and wouldn't want anything that could destabalise the Eurozone (it's structurally flawed so will collapse one day anyway, but the longer they can kick the can down the road the better).

Too many people are lapping up this rubbish as gospel and not seeing the bigger picture. The IMF is a joke, they never predict anything accurately (quick examples here and here) and their "forecasts" always fit the broader narrative. Their role in the Greek crisis was also verging on criminal.

Nobody knows what Brexit would mean economically, but what we do know for sure is that many have a vested interest in trying to scare us to remain, just like in Norway as below. Now one of the richest most prosperous countries in the world.

Lies told to Norway before they rejected EU membership

 

[McBain]

We have some of the lowest unemployment levels in years, the economy is strong and we are in a better position than a lot of other countries - because of our position in the EU.

All down to the EU eh?

What about countries in the EU with hideous unemployment rates? Not to mention unemployment has never been as low as it was before we entered the EU.

 

[Metallifux]

Scaremongering my friend.

Same was said back in 2008-2009, the most severe downturn hit the WORLD ever. We were down -1% on 2008 and -5.2% on 2009. Since 2010 we are up.

Everyone forgot that, and they are talking about "disaster, DOOM we going to lose 1.4%-4.5% until we recover". BS.

We have ONE OFF opportunity until the end of times, to get OUT of the EU.
There is going to be no future referendum, and we know that the EU goes for federalization as soon as the end of the year. And DC abolished our right to veto the federalization in February, in favour to get nothing, just smoke and mirrors (of very bad quality also).

Yes WE gave up our right to veto the federalization of the EU. So the unelected will continue governing this country, of which imposed 59% of the legislation on this country the last 8 years.

And I do not pull the numbers of facts off a hat. Paxman found so, on a documentary while looking the national archives.


Also nothing stops the economy to shrink. The world economy is in tatters at the moment, and we are going to see another recession soon affecting the whole world.

Closing because we have short memories. When Alistair Darling went to bail out the banks, with the sensible method he did, the EU commission was complaining. But so be it. We did it.
Greece, who came to the same situation as us, couldn't bail out banks as we did. The Tax payers paid for the bank debts, while the banks still belong to private owners (mostly German banks), and the Greek tax payer didn't obtain even 1% of the shares nor any guarantees that will EVER get the money back from the banks. While we in UK almost nationalised the banks, and we sell them now, making profit on top.

That is how the EU works my friend. To the interest of the core elite.

Well said sir

 

[scorza]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36566422

Germany accuses NATO of "warmongering". This is relevant to the debate because NATO is often brought up as a reason why there won't ever be an EU army, which is based on the assumption that NATO will always be around. So it's a bit concerning to hear the most powerful EU nation publicly criticising NATO.

 

[Juicy_vessel]

I'm not some far right nut job or a racist. I will not allow the actions of Tommy Mair sway my choice on Thursday. I am still voting for brexit.

It is a tragedy what happened. But no one whom previously said they would vote leave should change their mind and vote stay as an act of sympathy.

Yes everyone is entitled to their own political views of stay and leave etc...

 

[sityeuropa]

Do I expect to lose money if we leave? Yes
Do I care? No

This is how I see it.

I would happy pay thousands of my own money to leave the EU.

 

[Six6siX]

All down to the EU eh?

What about countries in the EU with hideous unemployment rates? Not to mention unemployment has never been as low as it was before we entered the EU.

No, i said 'as part of the EU'

Thus implying that our position within then EU benefits us more than it benefits other members countries.

So the economic state of the world is the same as it was when we entered the EU? Can't see how else your point would be relevant?

 

[insane200]

no one knows for sure what will happen, there are so many mixed messages, threats, scaremongering its become a joke.

But IMO if we wont try we will never know, So i'll still be voting out.

 

[Panos]

I literally have no idea what you're on about here. Where did the money come from to bail out the banks? Where do you think the profit will go if we sold the banks? And why would we do that?

Can you explain your thoughts in a structured manner with facts and evidence to back them up?

I'd suggest leaving out all the emotive arguments and anything to do with sovereignty.

Explain doesn't mean I have to justify my self. You say you have no idea what I was talking about the banks bail outs.

Alistair Darling, nationalised the banks with the bailout money it gave them, at the expense of the tax payers. The tax payer, us, own the bank shares and having control over them as we are either complete (RBS) or major 70% (Lloyds, HBOS). We already started selling shares at Lloyds with profit also, last year. While we still get back the dividends of the shares on profits. (yes we do)

In Greece, the Greek tax payer doesn't own a single share of the banks, even if by bail them out, doubled the national debt and send the country into oblivion. Why they didn't obtain the banks? Because
a) Are German owned.
b) The EU Competition Commission didn't allow them to do so, because is it against the EU regulations on competitions. (governments cannot nationalise, provide handouts, etc)

Same happened in Germany, when the German tax payers bailed out the German banks for half trillion Euro.

The EU Competition Commission complained to Gordon Brown, but we told them off sticking two fingers at them.

 

[scorza]

I'm not some far right nut job or a racist. I will not allow the actions of Tommy Mair sway my choice on Thursday. I am still voting for brexit.

Well said sir!

 

[McBain]

No, i said 'as part of the EU'

Thus implying that our position within then EU benefits us more than it benefits other members countries.

So the economic state of the world is the same as it was when we entered the EU? Can't see how else your point would be relevant?

Our position in the EU?

 

[Panos]

We won't make a profit on the banks (if we remain). We're being forced to sell them now before their value has recovered by the EU.

Actually that is at the discrepancy of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Last year when all the banks worldwide tumble down, we hold off the sale even a week before the RBS shares go on sale.

And they tumble down, because of the collapse of the commodities values.

 

[Jokester]

Actually that is at the discrepancy of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Last year when all the banks worldwide tumble down, we hold off the sale even a week before the RBS shares go on sale.

And they tumble down, because of the collapse of the commodities values.

It's not. If we don't sell the banks the EU will step in. They can't stall indefinitely and it's only because we have made the commitment to sell them within a certain time frame that the EU haven't enacted any punishment over it yet.

 

[Mulder]

Actually that is at the discrepancy of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Last year when all the banks worldwide tumble down, we hold off the sale even a week before the RBS shares go on sale.

And they tumble down, because of the collapse of the commodities values.

The EU stands for privatization, corporatism and capitalism.

Jim Sillars, Former deputy leader SNP, "EU treaties enshrine the ethic of capitalism".

European Union uses eurocrisis as alibi to push privatisation of water services
Privatizing Europe - Using Crisis to Entrench Neoliberalism

 

[Cosimo]

This is how I see it.

I would happy pay thousands of my own money to leave the EU.

Really, real money, how much?

 

[Six6siX]

Explain doesn't mean I have to justify my self. You say you have no idea what I was talking about the banks bail outs.

Alistair Darling, nationalised the banks with the bailout money it gave them, at the expense of the tax payers. The tax payer, us, own the bank shares and having control over them as we are either complete (RBS) or major 70% (Lloyds, HBOS). We already started selling shares at Lloyds with profit also, last year. While we still get back the dividends of the shares on profits. (yes we do)

In Greece, the Greek tax payer doesn't own a single share of the banks, even if by bail them out, doubled the national debt and send the country into oblivion. Why they didn't obtain the banks? Because
a) Are German owned.
b) The EU Competition Commission didn't allow them to do so, because is it against the EU regulations on competitions. (governments cannot nationalise, provide handouts, etc)

Same happened in Germany, when the German tax payers bailed out the German banks for half trillion Euro.

The EU Competition Commission complained to Gordon Brown, but we told them off sticking two fingers at them.

Good info, thanks.
From what I'm reading, the position on the bailouts is pretty mixed.
It's looking unlikely anything profitable will come of it though?

Our position in the EU?

Yes, as a member state with influence and our terms of access to the EU market for goods and services which accounts for around 50% of our totals.
They're two that come to mind as far as the economy is concerned.

 

[Mulder]

No. I'm not inclined to watch long, biased docs, tbh. Perhaps you provide a helpful précis. Try and be unbiased and honest, though, if you can manage that.

I understand the leftie arguments... but their vision isn't going to happen when we have the Tories in power. Especially if it's cemented by the Scotch jumping ship.

Sounds to me like you're only looking at evidence that supports your current viewpoint. But i'll provide a summary of Lexit the Movie if you like, maybe it would change your mind hearing about how the EU is at heart an anti-democratic, corporatist, neo-liberal elite pushing an agenda that serves only big business.

Use your once in a generation voice to vote for the above, because we have a Tory Government for another 3.5 years. Makes sense to me...