Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (June Poll)

[Skunkworks]

The EU wont have the same power with one of its biggest contributers gone.

 

[altus]

Dear people of the Leave camp, no-one is saying that the UK couldn't survive or make deals outside of the EU. What people are saying is that we will get a better deal as a member of the EU.

We are saying we do not want to sell our democracy for a few quid.

 

[Mr Jack]

The UK is the 5th largest economy and you think no one will want to do deals with us, don't be so deluded.

*scrape* *scrape*

Is that the sound of goalposts being moved that I hear? How do you leap from "we won't get access to the single market without free movement" to "no one will want to do deals with us"? I have never said anything of the sort.

Of course other countries will make deals with us but when negotiating with the largest single trading block in the world, we're not going to be the one with the weight advantage. When that block makes up 44% of our exports and we make up 16% of their exports, it's not us that us that has the export advantage.

The EU has repeatedly made clear - not just to us but to every country it has negotiated with - that access to the single market without free movement is a no go and we have no cards on the table that would give us the edge required to force them out of that position. We need them more than they need us, and they'll know it and we'll know it.

 

[Tunney]

We are saying we do not want to sell our democracy for a few quid.

I look forward to you campaigning for a referendum on other democracy issues (e.g. our unelected second house and head of state).

 

[Avenged7Fold]

Jesus, people turning into those herp derp, foaming at the mouth american types which shout about democracy all the time.

People are starting to value letting everyone have a say over the result that the say gives you.

 

[Freakbro]

We are saying we do not want to sell our democracy for a few quid.

What democracy is that, the one where the ruling party got 37% of the vote, where another party got 4 million votes and 1 MP, whereas another party got 1.5 million votes and 56 MPs, the one where the Leave campaign seem sure the entire Govt is going to ignore the results of this referendum.....that democracy?

 

[RaohNS]

The EU is not an undemocratic club; it's by far the most democratic supernational organisation on the planet. It's way more democratic that institutions such as NATO, the UN, the IMF, or the WTO. And by being part of the EU we have far greater democratic influence over the continent we're part of. Because being part of that continent is going to influence us regardless of whether we're in or out, being at the table negotiating with these other countries gives us greater control over our country.

Not to a nation state its not. The British may want something but we could be outvoted by people who the British have not elected.

Do you go and represent yourself on the world stage? No, you don't. You elect people to do it for you. As part of the EU, we get to directly elect representatives to go and do some of that negotiation and voting for us - alongside our nationally elected government. Outside of the EU we only have the proxy of our nationally elected government, we have no direct representatives. This is what I mean by represented by proxy.

Not sure how you can contrast that point with me as a citizen vs an incumbent of the UK. Outside of the EU we have one proxy... Within we have a proxy of a proxy.

could have phrased that better. Yes, of course, some people can study in Europe without being part of the EU, but non-EU students face higher tuition fees in most EU countries and, unlike EU students, do not have the same access to support schemes designed to ensure access for all. This means that you can only study there if you have the up-front cash to do it (or, since we're mostly talking about 18 years, if you have rich parents who are willing to pay). Because we're part of the EU that isn't true for us. This is a huge benefit.

The point I was making is twofold 1) students going overseas would not just stop and that 2) other countries do it probably more so than us. In fact it would be interesting to see how many students from non EU nations there are studying in the 10 biggest European countries. I would suppose it backs up point 2).

same is true of the right to live and work. If you're non-EU you'll find it harder to get a job; you'll need to apply for, and pay for, a costly visa; you'll have less security because you won't qualify for benefits if you lose your job and may even be deported; you'll have less rights to bring your family over, and they'll also have to apply for visas; and you'll now that at any time the country you're in might arbitrarily change the rules you're allowed to stay under. All of this isn't true for us living and working in the EU (and a few bonus countries) because we're members of the EU and we enjoy the enormous benefits of free movement that it brings.

Costly only if you have a system that allows it to be costly. If I wanted to go Russia it would cost me well over £100 to go through the procedure of having a visa. Less rights to bring family over? I very much doubt that as it is a right under European Law.

t's extremely rash to assume that we will be able to renegotiate re-entry into the Single Market as soon as we leave. And, if we do, it's almost certain that free movement will be a required part of that deal so the immigration, that's going to stay. The contributions to the EU budget? They'll stay. The big change will be that we no longer have any control over the EU rules we're bound by.

We will still be a part of the EEA. That is no guarantee of having requirements and restrictions, we negotiate the deal. We are asking for greater self control.

M aybe, a long time in the future, but for most - probably all - of the rest of the century, Europe is going to be a bigger trading partner than any of these countries.

Their wealth is growing exponentially and has 3billion customers... That's 7x what the EU has. Purchasing power is not the same but is growing daily.

 

[Chris Wilson]

Perhaps the EU citizens now have children that have grown up and are looking for jobs?

The borders have been open to EU citizens for many years now, is it not feasible that the offspring are looking for work?

So you are saying this massive discrepancy is simply a massive number of immigrant progeny who are out of work?

Could well be a part of it, for sure....

Is this a good situation?

 

[scorza]

The EU has repeatedly made clear - not just to us but to every country it has negotiated with - that access to the single market without free movement is a no go and we have no cards on the table that would give us the edge required to force them out of that position. We need them more than they need us, and they'll know it and we'll know it.

So we're going to have free movement of people with Canada in the near future are we? When the free trade trade deal that gives them access to the single market is signed and comes into force.

All I can say is that I'm glad you'll never have to negotiate on my behalf...

 

[Skunkworks]

What democracy is that, the one where the ruling party got 37% of the vote, where another party got 4 million votes and 1 MP, whereas another party got 1.5 million votes and 56 MPs, the one where the Leave campaign seem sure the entire Govt is going to ignore the results of this referendum.....that democracy?

Democracy not in fashion this season?

 

[Mr Jack]

So we're going to have free movement of people with Canada in the near future are we? When the free trade trade deal that gives them access to the single market is signed and comes into force.

You seem confused. CETA does not enter Canada into the single market.

 

[Freakbro]

Democracy not in fashion this season?

Not the version we have

 

[bayo000]

What democracy is that, the one where the ruling party got 37% of the vote, where another party got 4 million votes and 1 MP, whereas another party got 1.5 million votes and 56 MPs, the one where the Leave campaign seem sure the entire Govt is going to ignore the results of this referendum.....that democracy?

Don't forget the democratically elected head of state and House of Lords.

 

[scorza]

You seem confused. CETA does not enter Canada into the single market.

It gives them access to the single market, which is what you said. I'll quote again for you:

The EU has repeatedly made clear - not just to us but to every country it has negotiated with - that access to the single market without free movement is a no go and we have no cards on the table that would give us the edge required to force them out of that position. We need them more than they need us, and they'll know it and we'll know it.

CETA gives Canada access to the single market - does it include free movement of people? I am confused, because I thought it didn't.

 

[Mr Jack]

It gives them access to the single market, which is what you said.

And, again, it doesn't. Go and read it. The CETA does give Canada substantial tariff free trade with the EU but it does not enter them into the single market and, particularly significantly for the UK, does not cover much at all in the way of services.

 

[bam0]

So we're going to have free movement of people with Canada in the near future are we? When the free trade trade deal that gives them access to the single market is signed and comes into force.

All I can say is that I'm glad you'll never have to negotiate on my behalf...

The one that isn't in place yet, doesn't cover services and has many requirements that Canada has had to amend its laws to meet. But muh sovereignty?!

 

[scorza]

And, again, it doesn't. Go and read it. The CETA does give Canada substantial tariff free trade with the EU but it does not enter them into the single market and, particularly significantly for the UK, does not cover much at all in the way of services.

No - it gives them access to the single market but not freedom of movement which according to you the EU would never accept. It's important to be accurate here, Michael Gove stated his preferred post-Brexit option is to have access to the single market but not be in the single market - so they are two distinct positions.

 

[Mr Jack]

No - it gives them access to the single market but not freedom of movement which according to you the EU would never accept.

No, it doesn't. It does not give them access to the single market.

It's important to be accurate here

It is. Which is why I suggest you go and read up on the CETA instead of repeatedly making assertions that aren't true. CETA does not give Canada access to the single market. It gives it largely tariff free trade with the countries of the EU (+a few) but it is not the same level of access, uniformity, or control that the single market gives us now.

Michael Gove stated his preferred post-Brexit option is to have access to the single market but not be in the single market - so they are two distinct positions.

Gove's notions are a fantasy that will not come true.

 

[bam0]

No - it gives them access to the single market but not freedom of movement which according to you the EU would never accept. It's important to be accurate here, Michael Gove stated his preferred post-Brexit option is to have access to the single market but not be in the single market - so they are two distinct positions.

It doesn't, it gives them tariff free trade on a particular set of products. There are still high tariffs on both sides for many food and agricultural products. And there are the non tariff barriers to trade such as regulations and standards still to consider. The Canada deal is not what it's being presented as.

 

[Burnsy2023]

No - it gives them access to the single market but not freedom of movement which according to you the EU would never accept. It's important to be accurate here, Michael Gove stated his preferred post-Brexit option is to have access to the single market but not be in the single market - so they are two distinct positions.

And the UK would have significant issues if we had the same agreement as Canada does due to the fact services weren't included in the deal. It also took best part of a decade to negotiate.