Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (March Poll)

[scorza]

i don't know. i imagine because our MEPs are a pile of incompetent cretins like farage who would rather have bad decisions for the uk they can nuse as publicity points than get good deals for the uk and make the eu look attractive?

Elected representatives in the European Parliament don't get to make decisions like this - they just approve or reject whatever the more powerful bodies in Brussels come up with. No, this discussion will have been made behind closed doors, with who-knows-what in the way of horse-trading going on. The EU is a notoriously opaque entity.

 

[Avenged7Fold]

So are we against green energy policies now it is more expensive and reduces margins in a dying industry?

 

[datalol-jack]

More broad strokes.

Re Steel industry, worth considering.

Dave is in Lanzarote, Sajid Javid is on an ill-timed jolly Down Under and Jeremy Corbyn wants parliament recalled to debate the dying British steel industry. While cheaper Chinese imports may have forced prices down, British steel prices have risen £30 per tonne since Christmas, with EU prices nearly £50 higher than Chinese in November. The EU’s 37 failed anti-dumping measures are just a sideshow to the real problem facing the industry: excessive EU green taxes and carbon caps.

By pledging to cut carbon emissions by “at least 40%” in 2030, Brussels has forced energy companies into a spate of investments and divestments, causing chaos within the industry and sending electricity prices into the stratosphere. In the fracking-friendly USA, electricity costs just 7 pence per kilowatt hour – down 2% from last year. In China the cost of coal power has fallen by 2 pence. In Britain the average price per kilowatt hour for electricity last year was 13.9 pence – over 50% higher. As Kate Hoey says:

“The EU’s regulations on energy production are killing our steel industry. It is impossible for the UK to compete with non-EU countries like the US, where electricity costs half the price, and Norway, where energy is 25 per cent of the UK price. They unlike us are free from dogmatic, ineffective rules on energy sources.”
Even if Osborne wants to intervene, his hands are tied in any bailout situation by strict EU government aid laws. The UK had to grovel to EU bureaucrats for permission to off-set the new higher energy costs for the steel industry. Labour voters and Remain-backing unions like the GMB should face facts – the EU won’t save their members and will stop the government from doing so…

http://order-order.com/2016/03/30/eu-taxes-and-regulations-killed-british-steel-industry/

Is Brexit going to magically repeal the Climate Change Act, and the commitments we've made at the latest climate summits? Is it going to grant us an abundance of cheap renewable and natural carbon-based resources? Does the intervention make actual economic sense? How's leaving the EU going to help a non-EU agent compete against another non-EU agent?

Some background info:
https://www.theccc.org.uk/tackling-...-carbon-emissions/carbon-budgets-and-targets/

As was said earlier, Osborne has far more freedom than you think; and with half-competent opposition, things could be far less dramatic than they are. Now, whether he will choose to engage in a factory bailout on political and ideological grounds of his own accord is another matter. As a smart tactician, he might, at least in the short term. As a centrist Tory chancellor he won't.

 

[b0redj0rd]

^^ The steel industry is 'dying' because it isn't competitive anymore, a large part of the reason for this is the cost of energy here.

 

[Mr Jack]

The EU is a notoriously opaque entity.

Rubbish. Everything the EU does is public except for the details of current negotiations. It's at least as transparent as the UK government; and vastly more transparent than the international dealings we have with non-EU countries are.

 

[Tefal]

So are we against green energy policies now it is more expensive and reduces margins in a dying industry?

so say we have a war, or a dispute. and we have no native steel industry.

how long you think it would take to rebuild one?

 

[datalol-jack]

^^ The steel industry is 'dying' because it isn't competitive anymore, a large part of the reason for this is the cost of energy here.

Maybe that's why we've realigned to services in the first place? The EU did not force us to focus on financial services, education, computing and biomedical technology, did it now?

Why is everyone in the Leave group so keen to externalise the actions of our past governments, in the first place?

 

[Avenged7Fold]

Why is everyone in the Leave group so keen to externalise the actions of our past governments, in the first place?

Because they have insane amount of faith into what the future government is capable of achieving if we exit.

 

[Tefal]

If we have a war where a lack of steel production is the limiting factor for us, it's game over man already/we'd all be in a post-nuclear winter dystopian hell .

The thing is, at what point is the cost of preserving a strategic asset just not worth it... eg. the Port Talbot plant is losing £1m a day. I don't know how much that can be cut down by through a brutal restructuring...

well systems like Arrow 3 and others are rapidly bringing us back to a point where strategic nuclear war is unlikely

 

[Mulder]

Rubbish. Everything the EU does is public except for the details of current negotiations. It's at least as transparent as the UK government; and vastly more transparent than the international dealings we have with non-EU countries are.

Are you for real? I certainly wouldn't describe the EU budget like that. There's a reason the auditors haven't signed off on the EU accounts for 19+ years (see link below).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...more-than-100billion-of-its-own-spending.html

 

[Mulder]

Interesting article below that highlights how the EU likes to waste money:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/10565686/The-farce-of-the-EU-travelling-circus.html

 

[datalol-jack]

Are you for real? I certainly wouldn't describe the EU budget like that. There's a reason the auditors haven't signed off on the EU accounts for 19+ years (see link below).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...more-than-100billion-of-its-own-spending.html

These are made up, are they?

http://www.eca.europa.eu/Lists/ECADocuments/auditinbrief-2014/auditinbrief-2014-EN.pdf#page=10 - with specific comment re EU accounts
http://www.eca.europa.eu/Lists/ECADocuments/AB_2013/AB_2013_EN.pdf
http://www.eca.europa.eu/Lists/ECADocuments/INAR12/INAR12_EN.pdf

And this institution does not exist, does it?

http://www.eca.europa.eu/en/Pages/ecadefault.aspx - search for whatever you like

If you don't trust me, trust your friendly neighbourhood Labour MEP, who's amazingly landed on the same conclusions and sources because he actually does his job:

http://www.richardcorbett.org.uk/the-eu-accounts-have-never-been-signed-off/

If the auditors wanted to hide something and not do their job, why do they do just the opposite, and do so publicly, maintaining a high standard?

 

[Mulder]

These are made up, are they?

http://www.eca.europa.eu/Lists/ECADocuments/auditinbrief-2014/auditinbrief-2014-EN.pdf#page=10 - with specific comment re EU accounts
http://www.eca.europa.eu/Lists/ECADocuments/AB_2013/AB_2013_EN.pdf
http://www.eca.europa.eu/Lists/ECADocuments/INAR12/INAR12_EN.pdf

And this institution does not exist, does it?

http://www.eca.europa.eu/en/Pages/ecadefault.aspx - search for whatever you like

If you don't trust me, trust your friendly neighbourhood Labour MEP, who's amazingly landed on the same conclusions and sources because he actually does his job:

http://www.richardcorbett.org.uk/the-eu-accounts-have-never-been-signed-off/

If the auditors wanted to hide something and not do their job, why do they do just the opposite, and do so publicly, maintaining a high standard?

I'm not doubting the existence of the European Court of Auditors, I inferred their existence in my post....

My point is that they haven't signed off on the EU's accounts for 20 years. Every single year they refuse to give the accounts a clean bill of health, and include phrases such as the below (which you linked to).

Payments for 2014 are materially affected by error. We therefore give an adverse opinion on their legality and regularity.

I'm not sure such a large corporate would get away with their auditors qualifying their opinion with statements inferring they're wasting money, perhaps even illegally.

 

[bayo000]

Interesting article below that highlights how the EU likes to waste money:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/10565686/The-farce-of-the-EU-travelling-circus.html

Do you think UK government is any different?

 

[StriderX]

Do you think UK government is any different?

That's your argument... Seriously?

 

[datalol-jack]

Interesting article below that highlights how the EU likes to waste money:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/10565686/The-farce-of-the-EU-travelling-circus.html

How's that a reason to leave the EU, considering the benefits of free trade, our security cooperation and inward investment we get back?

Yes, there are silly, historical arrangements we and MEPs want reformed, here and in the EU. Yes, it costs money while our MPs, MEPs, leaders and mandarins wrangle over the details of reform. But no, it isn't the end of the world.

I'm not doubting the existence of the European Court of Auditors, I inferred their existence in my post....

My point is that they haven't signed off on the EU's accounts for 20 years. Every single year they refuse to give the accounts a clean bill of health, and include phrases such as the below (which you linked to).

Payments for 2014 are materially affected by error. We therefore give an adverse opinion on their legality and regularity.

I'm not sure such a large corporate would get away with their auditors qualifying their opinion with statements inferring they're wasting money, perhaps even illegally.

As per above links, the EU auditors suspect that about 0.2% of the EU's budget is potentially subject to fraudulent misuse. The UK? 0.38% on a significantly larger budget! Qualifying statements aren't the same as refusing to clear accounts. We get them too, and publish things like this:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...a/file/118530/annual-fraud-indicator-2012.pdf

Has everyone already let go of the MPs expenses scandal and the Westminster upkeep issue? Short memories indeed.

Which could be considered material error, evasion, misuse, waste etc. The country does need to keep going, though. So does the EU.

Hence sensible targets and thresholds are set -- no large system is error free, nor would it be practical to spend more money to chase down certain things, above the cost of said targets. But again, this isn't covered up, and the accounts are passed with guidance in the public domain.

On balance, they appear to be better at this whole accountability thing re budget money than we are, as the evidence stands!

 

[datalol-jack]

That's your argument... Seriously?

The Leave argument largely hinges on the Big Bad EU vs our competent, accountable and transparent government. So you'll get general pokes like that back. He just cut to the chase.

 

[scorza]

The Leave argument largely hinges on the Big Bad EU vs our competent, accountable and transparent government. So you'll get general pokes like that back. He just cut to the chase.

Speaking for myself, I've never accused our government of being competent - it hasn't been since Harold Wilson's days imo, since then they've been at least as competent as the EU however.

My point is always that it is our government however, chosen by us - the British people. Our government needs to raise its game and I think the only way it's going to do that is to leave the EU where they'll be forced to act in our interests and be held accountable for their performance and not be able to hide behind the EU.

 

[bayo000]

That's your argument... Seriously?

I wasn't arguing anything. Just asked the question. There isn't a government or a huge organisation in the world that doesn't waste money. I work in transit and our main clients are NR, Highways England, national grid and many councils. I see daily how much of our tax payesrs' money is being wasted.

 

[datalol-jack]

Speaking for myself, I've never accused our government of being competent - it hasn't been since Harold Wilson's days imo, since then they've been at least as competent as the EU however.

My point is always that it is our government however, chosen by us - the British people. Our government needs to raise its game and I think the only way it's going to do that is to leave the EU where they'll be forced to act in our interests and be held accountable for their performance and not be able to hide behind the EU.

In my view, Brexit would remove an important check and balance on them, making the overall picture worse, considering our electoral system and the political lay of the land. The excuses deployed will just shift gear: say, what's there to stop Sajid Javid making the same end-price-oriented argument against anti-steel-dumping measures outside the EU?