Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (March Poll)

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

  • Remain a member of the European Union

    Votes: 400 43.3%
  • Leave the European Union

    Votes: 523 56.7%

  • Total voters
    923
  • Poll closed .
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In my view, Brexit would remove an important check and balance on them, making the overall picture worse, considering our electoral system and the political lay of the land. The excuses deployed will just shift gear: say, what's there to stop Sajid Javid making the same end-price-oriented argument against anti-steel dumping measures outside the EU?

I don't want checks and balances from a bunch of un-elected bureaucrats in Brussels. We have our own system of checks and balances that's worked pretty well through the ages - sure it needs a bit of modernising but when we put our mind to it we can do some great things e.g. establishing our own Supreme Court to replace the Law Lords.

What's to stop Javid? We, the people.
 
I don't want checks and balances from a bunch of un-elected bureaucrats in Brussels. We have our own system of checks and balances that's worked pretty well through the ages - sure it needs a bit of modernising but when we put our mind to it we can do some great things e.g. establishing our own Supreme Court to replace the Law Lords.

What's to stop Javid? We, the people.

You and what people; what opposition (what about the 74% of the electorate who won't be contemplating voting for them anyway)? I bet you didn't know anything about the government's steel dumping stance until the Talbot story broke either.

As for the unelected nonsense again:
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/aboutparliament/en/20150201PVL00004/Legislative-powers
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/aboutparliament/en/20150201PVL00006/Supervisory-powers

So very much accountable to the directly elected body of MEPs. But wait 'we, the people' sent a bunch of numpties up to represent us in Europe -- great help! And do tell us how much of the Whitehall/Wesminster machine is directly elected, and how that compares to the equivalent institutions of the EU.

What you are offering are baseless platitudes, without a clue how to get practical change or how anything works. :\
 
How's that a reason to leave the EU, considering the benefits of free trade, our security cooperation and inward investment we get back?

It's just an indicative example of how the EU is a bloated bureaucracy, and is willing to spend £130 million of its peoples money (including British money) on shifting offices (people, their files, their staff) 300 miles back and forth once a month. I mean, how crazy and wasteful is that? But it doesn't stop, as France will always veto it.

Here's an another example, a system which is (now) clearly much better in the UK. Quote from The Economist here.

"The system of MEPs’ expenses, for example, is scandalous: no receipts need be produced, there is little auditing and employment of family members is common"


Yes, there are silly, historical arrangements we and MEPs want reformed, here and in the EU. Yes, it costs money while our MPs, MEPs, leaders and mandarins wrangle over the details of reform. But no, it isn't the end of the world.

It's not the end of the world, but it is another reason to want to leave the EU.

As per above links, the EU auditors suspect that about 0.2% of the EU's budget is potentially subject to fraudulent misuse. The UK? 0.38% on a significantly larger budget! Qualifying statements aren't the same as refusing to clear accounts. We get them too, and publish things like this:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...a/file/118530/annual-fraud-indicator-2012.pdf

Has everyone already let go of the MPs expenses scandal and the Westminster upkeep issue? Short memories indeed.

As above at least the UK acted on public pressure and made improvements in the wake of the expenses scandal. The EU represents too many varied interests and refuses to change. The further power is away from you the more unable you are to affect it. The 60+ million people lobbying parliament in the UK is far more likely to make them do something rather than 73 MEPs out of 751 trying to voice the interests of the UK.

Which could be considered material error, evasion, misuse, waste etc. The country does need to keep going, though. So does the EU.

If the EU "needs" to keep going (and a lot of people agree with you) then to what end? I think everyone would agree; a European superstate. I for one do not want the UK to be subsumed into that.

Hence sensible targets and thresholds are set -- no large system is error free, nor would it be practical to spend more money to chase down certain things, above the cost of said targets. But again, this isn't covered up, and the accounts are passed with guidance in the public domain.

On balance, they appear to be better at this whole accountability thing re budget money than we are, as the evidence stands!

In the UK you're quoting the cost of fraud (i.e. stealing) from central Government at £2.5bn. The EU's auditors found "material errors" in £109bn out of £117bn spending in 2013. See here. That's not stealing, that's them making "errors" in their own spending. So on the evidence, I'd suggest they are significantly less accountable.

We lose more from tax fraud etc, but the EU doesn't directly raise taxes so you can't fairly count that. I'd suspect if they did have to maintain a detailed record of everyone's earnings/assets/status (i.e. HMRC, but Europe wide!!) they would lose a lot more!
 
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You and what people; what opposition (what about the 74% of the electorate who won't be contemplating voting for them anyway)? I bet you didn't know anything about the government's steel dumping stance until the Talbot story broke either.

As for the unelected nonsense again:
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/aboutparliament/en/20150201PVL00004/Legislative-powers
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/aboutparliament/en/20150201PVL00006/Supervisory-powers

So very much accountable to the directly elected body of MEPs. But wait 'we, the people' sent a bunch of numpties up to represent us in Europe -- great help! And do tell us how much of the Whitehall/Wesminster machine is directly elected, and how that compares to the equivalent institutions of the EU.

What you are offering are baseless platitudes, without a clue how to get practical change or how anything works. :\

You may disagree, but the largest majority (27%) of voters in the UK chose UKIP in the last European Parliament election. You can't argue with democracy. Why do you think so many voted that way? I would suggest a big reason is that people are fed up of Europe and wanted to send a message.
 
You may disagree, but the largest majority (27%) of voters in the UK chose UKIP in the last European Parliament election. You can't argue with democracy. Why do you think so many voted that way? I would suggest a big reason is that people are fed up of Europe and wanted to send a message.

I suggest a low turnout and lack of informed thought.
 
I suggest a low turnout and lack of informed thought.

36% turnout is fairly low, but in absolute terms that's still almost four and a half million people choosing to say very clearly "we're voting for a party who wants us to leave the EU".

I'll dispute the facts, as you can't really rationalise opinion ;)
 

You are the one trying to perpetuate the favourite Telegraph myth that somehow materiality is invalid in this case, and infer incompetence and fraud following from that. So, for others, from the source you keep dodging -- what is materiality?

The materiality concept is the principle in accounting that trivial matters are to be disregarded, and all important matters are to be disclosed.

https://www.business-case-analysis.com/materiality-concept.html

The most commonly cited errors of this kind, accounting errors, not fraud or waste, are the lack of a supporting document for a transaction or misapplication of procurement rules (sounds familiar?). But this is most prevalent under the administraton of member states themselves, us included. And this is the area of reform that is being looked at, so hardly a monolithic, unmoving response. Nothing was covered up.

Now again from the sources you choose to ignore:

http://www.richardcorbett.org.uk/the-eu-accounts-have-never-been-signed-off/
http://www.eca.europa.eu/Lists/ECADocuments/auditinbrief-2014/auditinbrief-2014-EN.pdf#page=45

In the most recent audit year (2013), the Court gave a clean bill of health to the accounts for the seventh time in a row.

That's as far your Telegraph story goes. And to add insult to injury:

For all EU revenue, and for the portion of EU spending that is administered by the EU itself, the auditors certified that the accounts were free from material error (which actually means that error fell below a certain threshold). For the portion of EU spending that is administered by member states, the auditors found a material error rate of 3.8% in 2014.

Should we have more vetting at local party level, training and better accounting of our MEPs expenses? Sure. Which is why I find the UKIP record on these matters rather odd. But they did claim they made genuine mistakes, lol.
 
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36% turnout is fairly low, but in absolute terms that's still almost four and a half million people choosing to say very clearly "we're voting for a party who wants us to leave the EU".

I'll dispute the facts, as you can't really rationalise opinion ;)

Or they sent a protest to the Westminster government on whatever the trigger topic was at the time (cuts, migration, Tories), hoping that the repercussions won't be as severe as sending such clowns to London? It just undercuts our effectiveness for little gain.

We certainly have a habit of doing that in local elections too, which also enjoy a low turnout, with the oddest of parties as the recipients of the protest vote.
 
Or they sent a protest to the Westminster government on whatever the trigger topic was at the time (cuts, migration, Tories), hoping that the repercussions won't be as severe as sending such clowns to London? It just undercuts our effectiveness for little gain.

We certainly have a habit of doing that in local elections too, which also enjoy a low turnout, with the oddest of parties as the recipients of the protest vote.

Are you on government payroll as an inordinately large proportion of your entire history of posts are in this thread?

I don't get all the posturing here. Most people posting already have entrenched positions on either side so you may as well argue with a brick wall. :)

Entertaining for the rest of us though...
 
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Hmm, that's not the Telegraph regurgitating the already multiply debunked story about the difference between immigrants and NI numbers is it?

Oh, yes it is :rolleyes:

Makes me laugh the remain campaign are the ones accused of scaremongering are all the time....and I thought half the brexiters admit now that the debate isn't about immigration?

Not just saying that as platitudes are we?
 
Hmm, that's not the Telegraph regurgitating the already multiply debunked story about the difference between immigrants and NI numbers is it?

Oh, yes it is :rolleyes:

Makes me laugh the remain campaign are the ones accused of scaremongering are all the time....and I thought half the brexiters admit now that the debate isn't about immigration?

Not just saying that as platitudes are we?

It is about a full range of aspects rather than just one. However there is an issue with tracking immigration. The UK Would do better to select where skills are required in a system like that available in Australia. The result would be better salaries as an over supply at the lower skilled end of the market is avoided. It is very far from scaremongering as seems to be a generic response to dismiss fact in a lazy way.

Unfortunately the UK and other European economies are at risk as the EU contracts further of being flooded by people from other poorer economies that would never have been allowed work visas in other countries outside of the EU.
 
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It is about a full range of aspects rather than just one.

I agree, so why do you keep undermining your own position by putting up blatantly misleading and sensationalist articles that extrapolate false assumptions, trying to perpetuate them?

Especially if there is a full range of other (valid) aspects you could choose from

However there is an issue with tracking immigration.

One completely of our own making and nothing to do with the EU. Consecutive Tory the Labour governments scrapped our border agency counting people who left, and despite a decade of promises it's not been reinstated....bit odd that.

The result would be better salaries as an over supply at the lower skilled end of the market is avoided. It is very far from scaremongering as seems to be a generic response to dismiss fact in a lazy way.

Wheres the evidence of an over supply of labour since our unemployment is at the lowest point for a decade? Genuine question

Unfortunately the UK and other European economies are at risk as the EU contracts further of being flooded by people from other poorer economies that would never have been allowed work visas in other countries outside of the EU.

Using pejorative terms like 'flooded' is lazy writing as well when its shown time after time that the main economies in Europe are in growing trouble with ageing populations and dropping birth rates. This is leading to unsustainable economies as the tax take isn't going to support the retired.

I think this is why, even though the rhetoric from politicians can be all about controlling immigration blah blah, they don't do anything about it because they know we need it.
 
I agree, so why do you keep undermining your own position by putting up blatantly misleading and sensationalist articles that extrapolate false assumptions, trying to perpetuate them?

Especially if there is a full range of other (valid) aspects you could choose from



One completely of our own making and nothing to do with the EU. Consecutive Tory the Labour governments scrapped our border agency counting people who left, and despite a decade of promises it's not been reinstated....bit odd that.



Wheres the evidence of an over supply of labour since our unemployment is at the lowest point for a decade? Genuine question



Using pejorative terms like 'flooded' is lazy writing as well when its shown time after time that the main economies in Europe are in growing trouble with ageing populations and dropping birth rates. This is leading to unsustainable economies as the tax take isn't going to support the retired.

I think this is why, even though the rhetoric from politicians can be all about controlling immigration blah blah, they don't do anything about it because they know we need it.

Perhaps you should write to the papers to correct them?
 
Perhaps you should write to the papers to correct them?

Why, I'm asking you why you keep posting up these stories?

And you didn't answer my question on where you get your opinion on the oversupply of labour?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...inding-michael-gove-analysis-joshua-rozenberg

As I'm sure some of you know. The mediocre EU deal isn't legally binding. France were very keen to ensure nothing was legally binding until after the referendum. This means the UK can be promised everything for it all to be blocked after.

Yes, this was mentioned many, many, many times when the deal was done.
 
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