Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (May Poll)

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

  • Remain a member of the European Union

    Votes: 522 41.6%
  • Leave the European Union

    Votes: 733 58.4%

  • Total voters
    1,255
  • Poll closed .
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Speaking of economics I was doing some browsing this morning and stumbled across the below. Now I'm still undecided although tending to remain for a whole raft of reasons - not least no one seems to be able to give me some good, concrete reasons why we should leave other than a vague "immigration, economics and in charge of our own destiny".

As a fairly neutral party I have to say the level on unbiased informed information is appallingly scarce for such an important decision. I really don't feel I could rely on pretty much anything from either side at this point in which case the status quo is going to get my vote as a know quantity. Happy to be convinced otherwise by sensible facts and not "lol immigration and we send all our tax to europe".

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We also have the element of over what time span that commitment is. Presumably it would not be in one year.

Their spending is quantifiable if relating to 7yrs of non EU membership spending. Almost the length of a parliament.
 
Presumably it's all their crap saying how £350m/week goes to the EU and that could go to the NHS. But they only say 'could ;) ;)', so they're not blatantly lying. Then it can be figures over different numbers of years. Eg. if I was in charge I could saying of a £5bn budget I'll give you £1bn/year for ten years... so that's £10bn of spending. To me, they're being disingenuous trying to appeal to pretty much anyone by saying loads of this £350m/week figure (which is misleading) could go to things they care about. But that's obviously ridiculous on numerous levels.

In some respects that's true. A hell of a lot of money though on a club
 
A lot of the hate seems to stem from the fact he was the first non-lawyer to be appointed Lord Chancellor since the 17th century. He tried to reform a failing, incompetent legal establishment but the government ducked the fight in the end.

Michael Gove isn't a lawyer either but doesn't seem to be drawing anywhere near the same level of hate.

The problem with Grayling - someone without deep understanding of the justice system - was that he refused to look at the evidence before attempting reform. In fact, he attempted to bury the evidence unlawfully. Everything he did was politically motivated. He didn't care whether his reforms made our justice system better or worse.

Even if you believe that the British legal system is 'failing' and 'incompetent', you've got to agree that his approach to reform was tragic.
 
Why are the EU discussing removing Hungary and Poland's right to vote? They are both under democratically elected governments.


For all intents and purposes the EU replaced the Governments of Greece and Italy using each countries President to create life Senators (or equivalent) to install as Prime Minister.

The Freedom Party in Austria may not be everyone's cup of tea but when Jorg haider was elected to Government the EU disregarded Austrian democracy and excluded them.

Your free to believe what the EU allows you to believe.
 
Getting democratically elected gives someone carte blanche? If a member of your club is a knob, shouldn't you be able to tell him to sod off if he breaks the rules?

TBH, if we ever elected a government which tried to mess with our courts and move towards a state media propaganda arm, I'd hope the EU would help us out.

You sound just like Juncker in saying that democracy can often get the "wrong" result, so is often ignored by the EU. In essence you are saying "a technocratic EU knows better than democracy". No wonder we can't agree.

The EU has zero respect for democracy and is actively anti-democratic.
 
Getting democratically elected gives someone carte blanche? If a member of your club is a knob, shouldn't you be able to tell him to sod off if he breaks the rules?


But would the club member you told to "sod off" still be expected to continue paying his membership fees?

Sounds stunningly undemocratic, and I doubt whether the same would apply should a radically Left or Liberal government be democratically elected. The definition of a "knob" seems based on whatever side this "knob" points at, left or right....
 
No, im saying that a democratically elected government or person can then abuse their powers and start being undemocratic/abusing the rule of law/creating a state run propaganda arm/etc. Would we want an EU country to go the way of Putin's Russia? It'd be bad both for our security and for the people of that country. I wouldn't want to stand idly by and allow that to happen.

So you are saying you do not believe an EU member state should be allowed freedom to democratically elect any government the population so votes for? That if that is seen by the EU to be against their master plan that member state's voice should be annexed? The next step would logically be to disallow member states their own governance, and put them all under a centralised EU government.... Does that too appeal?
 
The EU can, using its rules everyone signed up to, affect countries within it/their rights/etc... that can affect internal things, but they can't magically change it so that treaty change can happen without their agreement. They could exclude a country from the European Council (under extraordinary circumstances, not whimsically as some might try and suggest), and thus discussions on a new treaty... but they can't have treaty change without the agreement of all states. Treaties are governed by international law... mainly the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties.

Right but what power require treaties and what powers are simply up to the council etc.
 
Oh dear this is embarrassing, you do know words can have different definitions yes?

The word 'free' in this context means 'Free from Quotas, Tariffs and Restrictions'....it has nothing to do with our monetary contribution to the EU, which is something else entirely.

So yes, we have 'Free Trade'
No, we don't have "free trade", but not because of contibutions paid to be part of the EU. You are quite correct that those contributions have nothing to do with the "free" part of free trade.

However, the EU is not a free trade area. It is a single market, though very much an incomplete one.

We have partial free trade, but not wholly so, within the EU, but even on goods it's not entirely complete and on services, which by definition should normally be included in a free trade area, which were largely included in the original pre-single market EU, and certainly have been repeatedly promised by the EU, are woefully short of happening.

In theory, the EU is a singie market, which takes the usual free-trade principles of removing taxes, tariffs, quotas etc, way further by also completing a "level playing field" by subjecting all participating members to exactly the same operating constraints, like health and safety standards and rules, packaging and labelling regulations, chemical content standards and much, much more.

So, in some significant areas, like services, the EU falls way short of even free trade let alone single market requirements, but in others, like free movement of capital, people, etc, it goes way beyond free trade.

The truth is, even if we left the EU and the singke market, any UK firms seeking to export to the EU would have to comply with many of those requirements, regulations (like labelling, etc) but only for goods they sought to export to the EU. Companies here not seeking to export to the EU would not have to comply, while currently, as part of that incomplete EU, they do.

Of course, the rest of the planet seeking to export to the EU manages to produce goods that comply with the EU regulations without being part of the single market. The US, China, entire south Pacific, south American regions, Canada, India etc all trade. And any EU member seeking to export into any of those countries has to comply with regulations, etc, of the country they're exporting to. If I want to export to Australia, I have to comply with all relevant Aussie regulations to do so, on goods I wish to export there.

Ae do not have free trade with the EU. We have mostly free trade, gold-plated with single-market add-ons, for most goods and far less services. And as the services sector is critically important to the UK, the degree of free trade we have we the EU is far less than you might think.

Moreover, the whole argument is missing the point, which is that the issue is far more complex than that. For instance, single market membership imposes a substantial regulatory burden on firms that either to not export, or do not export to the EU, with no compensating benefit from that single market. Such firms have to comply with such EU impositions, then if they want to export to Australia, the US etc, they have to comply with national requirements there, too, even though they are different to the EU.

Nobody can say for certain what the impact of leaving the EU would be. But when being part of a single market also implies being part of a bloc that imposes extra burdens to countries outside it trading in, as well as inside it trading out, then we not only have to consider the benefits of the 500m people in it, but the burdens imposed on the 6.5bn not in it, and the trajectory of those economies and our trade with them.

What worries me, in purely trade terms, is that being part of the EU is rather like hand-cuffing ourselves to the ship to ensure we don't get washed overboard, blissfully ignorant of the fate of our ship, the Titanic. Any half-competent economist can't fail to be aware that the EU ship is sailing full-speed through a minefield of icebergs, and given the state of many economies including some big ones, is already holed below the waterline, is taking on water and there's a huge questionmark over whether the bilge pumps can cope.

Oh, and a hell of a lot of the passengers are threatening mutiny and would live to lynch the captain and senior officers.

Should we be hand-cuffing ourselves to that, or booking our place on the life-raft?

I haven't yet finally decided, but I've geen waiting for some argument from Remain to convince me and have so far been disgusted by the nature of the campaign. Not that Leave is much better.

So, I'm voting out in this thread, but am still open to convincing otherwise if the Remain csmpaign can get their heads out of their butts and make a rational, not hugely distorted, case.


In the end, the EU is not about trade. It is and always has been a political project designed to produce, whatever we call it, a unified European state to counterbalance the Russians, the US, China, etc, and what we're really asking ourselves is not about short-term trade but about whether we want to be a small (but still economically significant) country, or an important region in a single European state?
 
It's interesting to look at peoples perceptions of European governance, and how "democratic" they consider it, as sociological groups.
I read an article last week from the military people who think we should leave and one of them was saying (as people here do) how vital it is that we leave so we are in control of our laws again, rather than people we don't elect.

I don't know about the rest of you but I only voted for my local MP, why should I have to accept these other people I didn't elect imposing laws on me? This might sound nonsensical but it's the same thing at a different scale. The reason you don't object to the UK parliament operating the way it does is you see the whole the UK as an ingroup you are part of.

Those, like me, who put no weight in the arguments about sovereignty similarly consider themselves part of an ingroup that includes the rest of the EU population. That's why I/they don't care that the UK doesn't win every policy battle, the other countries and their MEPs aren't outsiders imposing their will on us, we lost the argument according to the rules of the club we're a member of. The same way parties and the UK parliament debate and then vote on legislation, not everyone gets what they want and sometimes even the government loses.

If you consider it this way it makes it easier to understand the other sides view, and equally why they do, or don't, put a lot of weight on the sovereignty argument, and why on that topic people are unlikely to change.
 
You do know it's not a left or right wing issue?

It's not but the result of the vote is going to have a much more profound impact on the right of the political spectrum. Whatever the result, there's going to be a shift in the balance of power within the Conservative party. There could also be questions around the viability of the UKIP party.

If only Labour were in a position to exploit these weaknesses...
 
It's not but the result of the vote is going to have a much more profound impact on the right of the political spectrum. Whatever the result, there's going to be a shift in the balance of power within the Conservative party. There could also be questions around the viability of the UKIP party.

If only Labour were in a position to exploit these weaknesses...

I think UKIP will just cease to exist and rebrand either way the vote goes.

It will be interesting to see what happens with the tories post referendum.
 
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