Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (May Poll)

[Freakbro]

You just see camerons smug ass face if we vote to stay, knowing he bluffed so many people & reassured himself that they haven't got the brains they where born with.

Your sentences are always disjointed and usually have words missing, but then I guess it's quite hard to type properly when you are constantly dribbling on the keyboard

Why be so aggressive?

I'm not being aggressive?

we have free trade by the economic definition

By the correct definition, yes

but we have to pay for it so it's not free by the literal definition.

And when using a word literally isn't relevant, then it's not used to define the context. We don't 'have to pay money for it' - what about all the countries who are net benficiaries from the EU, they still get the 'Free Trade Agreement' - so the monies paid or received are not relevant to the FTA agreement - because it's about Quotas, Tariffs and Restrictions on the movement of goods, not about money.

Free from quotas, tariffs and restrictions.... IF you are a member.

But being a member doesn't necessarily mean you have to pay, since many countries are net beneficiaries. So that debunks your argument that people have to pay to get the FTA, so can you just not get that and move on now?

That means it has everything to do with our paying.

No, it doesn't, as stated above

That argument is now completely debunked. Can we move on from the fallacy of "free" trade.

Yes, your argument is completely debunked.

What are you seriously not getting about the above? Its crystal clear.

I am asking you the same question

 

[scorza]

I'm not being aggressive?

I'd class phrases such as "oh dear this is embarrassing" used in a general mocking tone as aggressive.

And when using a word literally isn't relevant, then it's not used to define the context. We don't 'have to pay money for it' - what about all the countries who are net benficiaries from the EU, they still get the 'Free Trade Agreement' - so the monies paid or received are not relevant to the FTA agreement - because it's about Quotas, Tariffs and Restrictions on the movement of goods, not about money.

Yes, so all that money we pay towards the EU is basically a massive stimulus for other, poorer countries. As a result, these countries are growing fast while the UK is stagnating with much lower growth and austerity.

 

[Freakbro]

I'd class phrases such as "oh dear this is embarrassing" used in a general mocking tone as aggressive.

Hmm, I would class it as light general mocking, as you say. I would class "You are a stupid ******* **** who doesn't know his **** from his elbow' to be aggressive

Yes, so all that money we pay towards the EU is basically a massive stimulus for other, poorer countries. As a result, these countries are growing fast while the UK is stagnating with much lower growth and austerity.

I thought we had the highest growth rate within the EU?

 

[PlacidCasual]

Quotes from computer games do not really make the best arguments but the following applies with respect to arguments about soveriegnty.

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

Where security might be economic as much as any other.

 

[scorza]

I thought we had the highest growth rate within the EU?

That would be a George Osborne 'economic fact' I'd assume.

In 2015, GDP for selected EU member states was:

UK - 2.2%
Luxembourg - 4.8%
Czech Republic - 4.4%
Romania - 3.8%
Poland - 3.6%
Slovakia - 3.6%
Bulgaria - 3.0%
Hungary - 2.9%
Slovenia - 2.9%
Latvia - 2.7%
Germany - 1.7%
Belgium - 1.4%
France - 1.2%
Italy - 0.8%
Greece - -0.2%

Be very interesting to see net contribution to the EU plotted against GDP growth.

 

[RaohNS]

But being a member doesn't necessarily mean you have to pay, since many countries are net beneficiaries. So that debunks your argument that people have to pay to get the FTA, so can you just not get that and move on now?

But you haven't debunked that argument. You have just provided a myopic element to the situation and not considered the logic behind it.

At the end of the day this "free trade" is becoming tedious. I'd much rather be discussing something more substantive such as: Is the EU a bloated technocratic autocracy. But I think any sane person would be saying yes.

 

[Avenged7Fold]

https://www.theguardian.com/science...plicable-and-brexit-spells-disaster?CMP=fb_gu

Looks like the smartest people in the world aren't sane

 

[scorza]

https://www.theguardian.com/science...plicable-and-brexit-spells-disaster?CMP=fb_gu

Ah the good old appeal to authority fallacy.

 

[RaohNS]

That would be a George Osborne 'economic fact' I'd assume.

In 2015, GDP for selected EU member states was:

UK - 2.2%
Luxembourg - 4.8%
Czech Republic - 4.4%
Romania - 3.8%
Poland - 3.6%
Slovakia - 3.6%
Bulgaria - 3.0%
Hungary - 2.9%
Slovenia - 2.9%
Latvia - 2.7%
Germany - 1.7%
Belgium - 1.4%
France - 1.2%
Italy - 0.8%
Greece - -0.2%

Be very interesting to see net contribution to the EU plotted against GDP growth.

Awaits Feakbro disregarding the percentage and then use the value figure

 

[dalehitchy1]

https://www.theguardian.com/science...plicable-and-brexit-spells-disaster?CMP=fb_gu

Looks like the smartest people in the world aren't sane

Good argument. You should win the next nobel prize. My god you must have a greater IQ than him. Why doesn't everyone know about this?!?!

 

[Avenged7Fold]

Ah the good old appeal to authority fallacy.

I have my own opinions and it just so happens that they align with the opinions of other scientists like Hawking and most economists.

Also, what authority does Stephan Hawking have that i appealing to?

He is one of the most intelligent men on earth, discounting his opinion because you dont agree with it is ridiculous. His opinion is worth more than most because he is capable to understand more than most.

It seems in politics, if the more intelligent disagree with you, you just blame that on an appeal to authority

Good argument. You should win the next nobel prize. My god you must have a greater IQ than him. Why doesn't everyone know about this?!?!

If you put sarcasm aside, why is it the more qualified and better educated are pro-eu?

Not just the young ones but the older ones from before all the claimed brainwashing BS.

We stand to lose a lot and i would trust my own opinion on what is best for science as well as the opinion of other physicists.

 

[scorza]

I have my own opinions and it just so happens that they align with the opinions of other scientists and most economists.

Also, what authority does Stephan Hawking have that i appealing to?

In the field of politics, none at all, which is why appealing to his authority over this issue is a logical fallacy. If it was an article about quantum mechanics or string theory then yeah, he's an expert and he has authority - but on the issue of British sovereignty and the EU, he ain't and he don't.

He is one of the most intelligent men on earth, discounting his opinion because you dont agree with it is ridiculous. His opinion is worth more than most because he is capable to understand more than most.

It seems in politics, if the more intelligent disagree with you, you just blame that on an appeal to authority

Thanks for demonstrating again what an appeal to authority fallacy looks like

Another great scientist, Carl Sagan, once wrote:

One of the great commandments of science is, 'Mistrust arguments from authority.'...Too many such arguments have proved too painfully wrong. Authorities must prove their contentions like everybody else.

 

[Roar87]

I love the Reductio ad Hitlerum argument being played out by Remain, trying to associate Boris Johnson with Donald Trump

 

[Burnsy2023]

In the field of politics, none at all, which is why appealing to his authority over this issue is a logical fallacy. If it was an article about quantum mechanics or string theory then yeah, he's an expert and he has authority - but on the issue of British sovereignty and the EU, he ain't and he don't.



Thanks for demonstrating again what an appeal to authority fallacy looks like

Another great scientist, Carl Sagan, once wrote:

I hate to say it, but scorza is right here. Whilst intelligent people may be right, they still need to prove their position like any other.

 

[RaohNS]

I hate to say it, but scorza is right here. Whilst intelligent people may be right, they still need to prove their position like any other.

He is. Just because you are smart doesn't automatically give you credence.

Now Yanis Varofoukis has said we should remain. He is fantastically clever economically. He says we should remain and try to negotiate. The only logical failure to his argument however is the most crucial and that is the EU refuses or is in fact incapable of doing so.

If we could guarantee a fairer and more balanced status in the EU I wouldn't have issue in remaining. The problem is trying to change something like that is akin to flogging a dead horse.

The only way power structure truly changes is through violent revolution. Us going off could be the spark to encourage the Greeks, Spanish and Italians. The EU may be able to just about survive a Greek exit but only if all economies in the EU were healthy.

 

[McBain]

Now Yanis Varofoukis has said we should remain. He is fantastically clever economically. He says we should remain and try to negotiate. The only logical failure to his argument however is the most crucial and that is the EU refuses or is in fact incapable of doing so.
.

Exactly, that last negotiation went spiffingly.

 

[RaohNS]

Exactly, that last negotiation went spiffingly.

Do you know why it went spiffingly or are you allowing the press to think for you? Do you know the circumstance of his attempt to negotiate? Are you aware of the pretext and context of what was at stake?

So far, it seems you know nothing regarding that.

Edit: You are saying that sarcastically about negative of him???

 

[McBain]

Do you know why it went spiffingly or are you allowing the press to think for you? Do you know the circumstance of his attempt to negotiate? Are you aware of the pretext and context of what was at stake?

So far, it seems you know nothing regarding that.

Edit: You are saying that sarcastically about negative of him???

I was being sarcastic.

 

[scorza]

Now Yanis Varofoukis has said we should remain. He is fantastically clever economically. He says we should remain and try to negotiate. The only logical failure to his argument however is the most crucial and that is the EU refuses or is in fact incapable of doing so.

I saw his remain argument on the Andrew Marr show on Sunday. He had no love for the EU at all, his argument was that we should stay in because if we Leave then the EU will implode and take us with is. Someone should have challenged him on this idea that we can negotiate with the EU, we all know that once the referendum is over the EU will plough ahead with its project. I don't see any evidence that the EC is willing to listen to any dissenting voices.

 

[RaohNS]

I was being sarcastic.

So you don't know why it went not so well?

There is a lot of further reading you can do on that particular element. For a snapshot, watch his Oxford Union address. Superb.