We can leave tommorow, it's just that UKIP forced Cameron to give a referendum, we don't need one to leave.
Poll: The EU Referendum: What Will You Vote? (New Poll)
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We can leave tommorow, it's just that UKIP forced Cameron to give a referendum, we don't need one to leave.
Soldato
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Erm.. hang on a second. Even if we take the gross UKIP figure of 20 Bn contributions, without looking at the rebate, then how's getting 50 Bn back on top of it for our research and unis a negative?
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Yeah but no one really thinks we're going to have more power outside the EU but the truth is we have more choice in how we apply the power. If there's something the EU wants done and it gets voted forward then we have to, as a free nation we can apply our power in a more selective and actually british appropriate way (in cases where we believe it's right and in public interest) so it's pointless debating the none arguments just like when they say we're safer inside EU despite it not really doing anything to make us safer. Unless the EU are callous, not worthy of respect and selfish idiots then if anything of any serious concern happened within the UK I'd assume they would be willing to help and I don't foresee anything short of huge global wars / events that would be in the EU's interst to come and help us. They didn't help with any terrorism in paris or anything so small scale stuff is out the question, big scale is anyones game so we have none arguments and misleading stuff on either side. We're never in control anyway, what have we done for mexico's drug wars, to push down china or middle easts tyrants, to stop Isis, to prevent the annexing of crimea, the forcing out of white farmers / failed states in africa etc? Your idea that we're a global powerhouse when we're united in the EU is bull. We don't do anything.
I feel what Michael gove expressed highlights my issues I tried to point out earlier. The EU is a slow to act, democratic mess where things that aren't in our interest are thrown up against 27 other nations to see if they agree something is important enough to take there money. The fact michael gove pointed out there's been several cases where they've felt stifled adjusting laws because of EU policies being too overbearing highlighted the lack of management of our laws and the inability to properly give member nations a way to control there own sensible adjustments where need be. In the end both sides are right, it's easy to pick one side and get grumpy at the others but the IN side is right that it's economically better, safer and more likely to keep up relations with other countres but the OUT side are correct that we will get to control our own laws, break away from slow to act and forced policies being passed on from 27 other nations (that proved in the referendum debates they don't really get on or bargain that well) and we'll gain a bit more control on benefits, migration (not all of course) and other elements.
People need to realise half our concerns will be dealt with one way or another, it's more important to vote based on the positives of the policies than the negatives. Do you want democracy and closer management along with accountability within our own parliament or do you want financial stability and relations with the EU? We'll get two years to renogotiate our trade deals with EU, we'll never get our democracy back. That said I don't know which way I'm voting yet, leaning on an in vote at the moment but I could go either way truth be told, I think the EU are poor at management but the referendum did resolve a few issues I had (deporting criminal migrants, bailing out countries etc.) so I'm leaning on an in vote but I hate the EU as it's really so undemocratic and pathetically lagging on the world scene while being so incredibly over bearing in forced laws. I don't even trust them to give us half the stuff we agreed in the referendum either and that's the problem with the EU, they're a maze of 28 countries self interests and no real management. It's hard to argue the economic argument but damn I hate the EU.
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I love how Michael Gove argues that we could spend more money on research and universities whilst being part of a government that's actively defunding research and universities right now.
If these were priorities, they wouldn't be seeing such drastic cuts in funding from central government.
If these were priorities, they wouldn't be seeing such drastic cuts in funding from central government.
Soldato
Which ones are those and are you voting in or out?
Erm.. hang on a second. Even if we take the gross UKIP figure of 20 Bn contributions, without looking at the rebate, then how's getting 50 Bn back on top of it for our research and unis a negative?
We pay in £20bn a year and get £8bn back so however you look at it we're simply subsidising other countries.
If you started a club and those were the terms would you want to join it ?
Caporegime
The country voted for the Tories who made no secret that they were going to cut spending. Only three budgets wouldn't be cut; NHS - which was frozen, foreign aid - which is Cameron's legacy, and the money we give to the EU which we have no control over. Perhaps we'd be defunding less if we weren't in the EU.
Soldato
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Have a look at my last reply to George Hincapie on power and sovereignty. That's what I think it comes down to.
But re Gove's stance, like the PM, I'd never find occasional frustration on its own a good reason to leave any big organisation with demonstrable economic advantages. Besides, we haven't been treated like a second-rate member over the decades: exemptions, rebates, considerable input from British heads into the formation, rules and law governing the common market and human rights, etc. This latest emergency summit and deal is only the latest in a long string of special treatments.
Lastly, a lot of what people moan about rule-wise, is actually what makes the common market flow smoothly. But because they are neither in business or understand the rules, they buy whatever second-hand information catches their attention most from a source that appears authoritative.
We should finally decide whether we can make having our EU cake and eating it tenable, or not.
Perhaps if Universities didn't pay some of their staff over £600,000 a year they would have more money for research.
Soldato
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Sure, if my return on the remainder was 230 Bn and growing, like it is now, I'd never want to leave.
The In campaign certainly can't give any guarantees either. Staying in is a sure guaranteed way to lose more power to the EU overtime!
The so called "Deal" that Cameron has come back with is nothing more than token gestures.
Just to add to the media links...
What Britain would look like after leaving the EU
I have no idea what you're talking about.
Soldato
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Nothing is certain in life. But which deal would you rather believe? One written on paper, signed with a working organisation; one offered as a pipe dream, verbally, by people who have no power to make anything they promise come true.
Soldato
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Like Kipper HQ you take your economic numbers from, I'm coming round to the idea that you may not know about a lot of things to do with the EU or British trade.
John, no offence, but when you assert a quantifiable claim -- it can be easily checked, and all the official stats say it's poppycock. I'll take their word for it over Nige's reckonings. You may choose to believe what you like.
You carry on thinking we get more back from the EU than we pay in if you like.
Soldato
Wrong and wrong. You might want to check who is eligible to vote. And the groups you describe are most likely to vote to exit.
Lol gove being right is a physical impossibility in this universe, that's almost as absurd a statement as some comedian suggesting that ian smith might be right.
I'd have a pretty boring life if I always played it safe.
Sigh...
For jelly donuts and baby turtles datalol-jack stop acting like you're actually 100% correct. You have come to a conclusion upon the information you have digested... Which is your opinion.
Yes uncertainty is a large hurdle if we leave.
But for all the salt in Russia stop claiming we are economically better in the EU as though it's grounded fact. It's statistics which can always be rigged.
While you are happy trusting CBI and other foundations I'd rather believe a fund manager whose entire business is based on making money. Rather than just studying numbers.
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