Poll: The EU Referendum: What Will You Vote? (New Poll)

[datalol-jack]

How do you think we did it when the EU was called the common market?
You act as if it's the first time the UK has had to deal with the world.

But what was the volume of trade, potential for growth and return on that trade: less, about the same, or greater if you pro-rata it to modern cash value? Why join if we did better outside and had nothing to win?

The political aspect, which we always opposed, was on the table since De Gaulle, namely to avoid another war, and the subsidiary principle was well established and clearly spelled out later on. Why did the successive lot of Labour and Tory prime ministers and chancellors not take us out, if it all were such a rotten deal? Conspiracy?

 

[John40]

Seems a strange reason to leave then.

If you think our money is better spent in Romania than here why not move there.

 

[robfosters]

Or you know, it's a perfectly valid stand pointing. As so much rubbish posted in thus thread. Seems the leave party literally don't have any idea about the EU and take their view point from daily mail headlines. Just look how many times echr and vacuume cleaners and the like have come up for reasons to leave.

So you're basically saying that we should knock democracy on the head because people are too stupid to be trusted?

 

[Glaucus]

So you're basically saying that we should knock democracy on the head because people are too stupid to be trusted?

Democracy does not and has never meant direct democracy.
Direct democracy is one if the worse firms of government out their.
There should be no referendum vote as 99.99% of the public do not have the knowledge to make an informed choice

 

[Burnsy2023]

So you're basically saying that we should knock democracy on the head because people are too stupid to be trusted?

Micro democracy where everyone votes on everything wouldn't work because nobody would have enough understanding to make a reasoned and considered choice. That's why we elect a bigger group of people to make those decisions on our behalf.

Democracy isn't an infallible system, it has flaws like any other and assuming that the electorate can make reasoned and logical decisions is a big assumption.

 

[deuse]

But what was the volume of trade, potential for growth and return on that trade: less, about the same, or greater if you pro-rata it to modern cash value? Why join if we did better outside and had nothing to win?

The political aspect, which we always opposed, was on the table since De Gaulle, namely to avoid another war, and the subsidiary principle was well established and clearly spelled out later on. Why did the successive lot of Labour and Tory prime ministers and chancellors not take us out, if it all were such a rotten deal? Conspiracy?

Stop talking crap. This is not the game section(neogaf)

We do no more trade with the EU now then we did before. But you knew this already.
Before the maastricht treaty was signed Maggie wanted the UK out of the EU.

 

[Burnsy2023]

There should be no referendum vote as 99.99% of the public do not have the knowledge to make an informed choice

Perhaps, but regardless, the public should be better informed about the EU, it's advantages and it's flaws. If the public were better informed, I don't think we'd be here. There are a lot of undecided voters who simply don't have the information available to consider. I doubt either campaign will give a truly representative view.

 

[robfosters]

There should be no referendum vote as 99.99% of the public do not have the knowledge to make an informed choice

Rubbish. Utter twaddle. You're doing your fellow countrymen a serious disservice.

You just dont want a referendum in case you get the wrong vote. The power should be in the public's hands, not the elites. That's one of the main problems with the EU.

 

[George Hincapie]

Micro democracy where everyone votes on everything wouldn't work because nobody would have enough understanding to make a reasoned and considered choice. That's why we elect a bigger group of people to make those decisions on our behalf.

Agreed. But this isn't one of those decisions.

 

[Glaucus]

Rubbish. Utter twaddle. You're doing your fellow countrymen a serious disservice.

You just dont want a referendum in case you get the wrong vote. The power should be in the public's hands, not the elites. That's one of the main problems with the EU.

I really aren't look at this thread and the misinformation and stupid things people are saying.

Perhaps, but regardless, the public should be better informed about the EU, it's advantages and it's flaws. If the public were better informed, I don't think we'd be here. There are a lot of undecided voters who simply don't have the information available to consider. I doubt either campaign will give a truly representative view.

Yes people should know more, but even then they can't know enough. EU is massive and complicated. Unless everyone can spend career like hours studying it. Then they will never know enough.

Same with lots of aspects of government. Which is why direct democracy absolutely sucks and you vote in people who should know such things. In reality it doesn't work like that.

 

[Caged]

So you're basically saying that we should knock democracy on the head because people are too stupid to be trusted?

It's extreme but people often have no idea what they are actually voting for and end up voting in counter-productive ways (see the amount of 'working-class' people deciding the Tories were best placed to represent them back in May).

However, we don't really have a better way. Until the electorate start demanding better reasoning from our politicians then we will continue to be spoken to in soundbites or outright lied to.

 

[datalol-jack]

If you think our money is better spent in Romania than here why not move there.

Okay. I'll try a different tac: why do we raise taxes from people, and why do we invest money abroad? Have you considered that perhaps using joint EU funds constructively to build up and strengthen economies in the bloc is a long term bet, which would both act to reduce migration and give us more consumers for our services, as quality of life rises?

It's the same reason we at times choose to spend cash raised in London for infrastructure and investment outside of London in the UK. You know, this Northern Powerhouse thing isn't just because the chancellor is a secret reader of Marx. It makes sense... At least if Osborne would commit to it fully. You get the idea?

 

[George Hincapie]

There should be no referendum vote as 99.99% of the public do not have the knowledge to make an informed choice

A statistic you have pulled out of your backside and absolute nonsense to boot. Well done for introducing new levels of pathetic hysteria to the thread

 

[Burnsy2023]

Agreed. But this isn't one of those decisions.

I was talking more broadly, but a referendum has similar flaws. Are the public going to be well informed to make a decision in four months? I would say that a large number won't be, but that's no different to any other referendum.

 

[deuse]

I really aren't look at this thread and the misinformation and stupid things people are saying.
.

Yep look at the post below

Democracy does not and has never meant direct democracy.
Direct democracy is one if the worse firms of government out their.
There should be no referendum vote as 99.99% of the public do not have the knowledge to make an informed choice

 

[Glaucus]

A statistic you have pulled out of your backside and absolute nonsense to boot. Well done for introducing new levels of pathetic hysteria to the thread

yes it's quite clearly pulled out if thin air, it is far from hysteria.
You got any idea how big EU is and how much studying it would take to understand it?
You relay think a reasonable portion of the public know the ins and outs of EU, that is the deluded position.
You can say regardless of knowledge there should be a referendum, but to deny nearly none if the public are informed to a high level is just deluded.

How many in here complaining about things like vacuume cleaners have actually read the regulation? And that's something simple. Let alone the entirety if EU.

 

[Zethor]

If you think our money is better spent in Romania than here why not move there.

Who do you think will profit the most from the newly built roads? Mostly French and German companies:

http://www.insidermonkey.com/blog/10-biggest-trucking-companies-in-the-world-367931/2/

And who handles the financial services of those companies? The City of London, of course.

Maybe it's not such a bad idea to invest in Romania after all, eh?

 

[Danthus]

If you think our money is better spent in Romania than here why not move there.

That is clearly what I said, yes, yes it is.

 

[George Hincapie]

I was talking more broadly, but a referendum has similar flaws. Are the public going to be well informed to make a decision in four months? I would say that a large number won't be, but that's no different to any other referendum.

The only way they won't be informed is if they are living under a rock between now and the vote. I expect we are going to be subject to a barrage of information from both sides; some of it will obviously be emotional nonsense but there should be sufficient truth to help people decide.

 

[datalol-jack]

Micro democracy where everyone votes on everything wouldn't work because nobody would have enough understanding to make a reasoned and considered choice. That's why we elect a bigger group of people to make those decisions on our behalf.

Democracy isn't an infallible system, it has flaws like any other and assuming that the electorate can make reasoned and logical decisions is a big assumption.

Exactly. Imagine being woken up at night, and on your smartphone Westminster asks you to consider the finer points of a bill to do with the use of GMOs, military action in Syria or a foreign trade deal? You have a few hours to consider, then vote. Is this the best sort of decision you could've made?

Which is why I bang on about briefings and stats -- at least trying to understand the issue for yourself, is an essential part of the democratic process and civic engagement.