Poll: The EU Referendum: What Will You Vote? (New Poll)

[datalol-jack]

...

No, I'm not interested in your theories, politically correct or not. You can entertain deuse with them, if you like.

What do native criminals have to do with EU immigration?

 

[deuse]

How on earth do you think you know that? In fact, we don't have a clue what kind of immigration system the UK will have if we vote for Brexit; you don't even know whether Brexit will end free movement at all.

Because it's the best system going and other countries use it.

That'll be just great for our tourist industry and education sector, I'm sure.

The USA doesn't have a problem.

 

[MikeB]

It what way flawed?

No depth, doesn't always think and his I am quitting....oh no I'm not stuff at last election, then again no one is perfect, I love disruption, I'd happily try him or Boris as PM

 

[datalol-jack]

Because it's the best system going and other countries use it.

The USA doesn't have a problem.[metal gear alarm noise (!)]

Well, no. Especially if your claim is that it is: a). perfect b). captures everything c). cost free.

As has been shown before, that's factually incorrect. The computerised system is poor and crash-prone on top of that, causing delays and errors in processing. Plus, the costs of the USA equivalent of the Home Office and Border Control are also higher than what is collected from the users of the system. We are talking of a gap of billions here.

Moreover, you do not know what the government shall decide upon Brexit, nor that it'll follow the American model. We've cut money from the Home Office and related functions, and Osborne isn't investing any more. Will he? Tell me if you can divine that from the tabloid headlines!

 

[scorza]

How on earth do you think you know that? In fact, we don't have a clue what kind of immigration system the UK will have if we vote for Brexit; you don't even know whether Brexit will end free movement at all.

What is certain is that Britain will control her borders once again. If a future governments decides to sign up to uncontrollable immigration again then we, the People of the United Kingdom will hold them to account for that decision. For that reason, I find it extremely unlikely that any government would agree to do that.

That'll be just great for our tourist industry and education sector, I'm sure.

Compared to the cost of flights, accommodation, tuition fees it'll be a trivial amount, so it's not going to affect those things too much.

No depth, doesn't always think and his I am quitting....oh no I'm not stuff at last election, then again no one is perfect, I love disruption, I'd happily try him or Boris as PM

Just pointing out that he did offer his resignation after the last general election, the UKIP chairman quite sensibly declined to accept it and convinced him to stay on as leader.

 

[MikeB]

Isn't the point about the what if's is that we don't know, could be better, could be worse, what we do know is that if we leave every 5 years we can throw out what we don't like and try something else, we won't have a rule imposed on us that specifically benefits olive growers a thousand miles away, or a fisherman in a Spanish port, we can decide if prisoners should vote, etc etc etc, and yes, I look forward to buying crooked fruit!

 

[Mr Jack]

What is certain is that Britain will control her borders once again. If a future governments decides to sign up to uncontrollable immigration again then we, the People of the United Kingdom will hold them to account for that decision. For that reason, I find it extremely unlikely that any government would agree to do that.

Funnily enough, plenty of other Brexiters are arguing that we'll rejoin the EEA. It is highly unlikely that we'll get free trade access to the EU without agreeing to free movement; I think it's more likely than not that we'd re-enter the EEA and grant free movement if we left the EU. As for your notion that the British people wouldn't stand for it; given that even if Brexit wins it's likely to be a narrow victory and that many Brexiters advocate rejoining the EEA I'm not sure what basis there is for your claim.

Compared to the cost of flights, accommodation, tuition fees it'll be a trivial amount, so it's not going to affect those things too much.

Or they could just not pay it, avoid the hassle, and go somewhere else. Will it result in a total collapse? No. Will it further reduce our appeal and thus cost us money? Yes.

 

[MikeB]

As for your notion that the British people wouldn't stand for it; given that even if Brexit wins it's likely to be a narrow victory and that many Brexiters advocate rejoining the EEA I'm not sure what basis there is for your claim.

You have no way of knowing that, love to see some facts, given that the polls are all over the place, and that a large majority are undecided, making a statement that many who want to leave want to rejoin in any form is brave, especially given it opens borders again

 

[Mr Jack]

Isn't the point about the what if's is that we don't know, could be better, could be worse, what we do know is that if we leave every 5 years we can throw out what we don't like and try something else, we won't have a rule imposed on us that specifically benefits olive growers a thousand miles away, or a fisherman in a Spanish port,

This is highly unlikely. The likelyhood is that we will sign treaties with other nations - just as we currently have hundreds of - and be bound by those treaties. We will not suddenly become free to do what we want to do; we will continue to be players in a global world where we constantly make new deals with other nations for our benefit and theirs.

we can decide if prisoners should vote, etc etc etc..

That's the European Court of Human Rights. This referendum does not affect our relationship with the ECHR because it is not part of the EU but part of a separate treaty.

... and yes, I look forward to buying crooked fruit!

Euromyth

 

[datalol-jack]

.. we, the People of the United Kingdom will hold them to account for that decision.

The same people who thought Ed Miliband was going for a landslide, and elected Corbyn, by any chance? They aren't doing a sound job, atm. What'll change in independent Britain?

Given the inherent advantages first past the post affords the incumbents, I'd almost be tempted to see 'the people' rage against a popular, (perceivably) economically literate government, who also happen to not mind economic migration.

Compared to the cost of flights, accommodation, tuition fees it'll be a trivial amount, so it's not going to affect those things too much.

Okay. I'll help Out a little bit. And it's not quite so trivial a matter. But this document may give a better picture:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/503658/Fees_table_18_March_2016_PDF.pdf

I assume we'd just expand this to cover everyone, personally; in the wildly unlikely event that the populists succeeded in magicking away the free movement requirement by the EU.

Although it would still be rather naive to take the current fee levels as is -- a bigger points system would need more resources, which would have to come from the users, the government and the industry sectors involved.

Now, for the non-EU chaps the web portal is still in BETA! Can it be rushed through? Can it take the volume? How would you resolve the bureaucratic challenge in the light of ongoing EU negotiations post-Brexit, and the other urgent matters to do with that? We've only got so many people and so much cash slushing about for snap projects. Would it be ready in 2 years? 5? 20?

Just pointing out that he did offer his resignation after the last general election, the UKIP chairman quite sensibly declined to accept it and convinced him to stay on as leader.

It was all rather silly. Miliband and Clegg resigned too. They didn't flip-flop. And the stakes for Farage weren't that high -- he could have just focused on winning the seat, without the theatrics.

 

[Mr Jack]

You have no way of knowing that, love to see some facts, given that the polls are all over the place, and that a large majority are undecided, making a statement that many who want to leave want to rejoin in any form is brave, especially given it opens borders again

The polls are actually quite consistent but vary by method. Online polling consistently shows Remain and Leave level-pegging with different polls showing small leads for one or another; Telephone polling consistently shows a healthy lead for Remain. No polls so far have shown a big lead for leave (I think 4% is the largest I've seen). Of course, polls are only a guide (and the gulf between online and telephone polling suggests something is amiss) and the referendum is still a long way off so things may turn out differently.

As for whether we rejoin the EEA, I'm pretty sure that economic factors will force our hand. Most analyses suggest that Brexit will have a large short term impact on the UK economy; I think the desire to see the UK return to growth will force the government into agreeing an EEA deal. But I no more have a crystal ball than you do.

 

[scorza]

Funnily enough, plenty of other Brexiters are arguing that we'll rejoin the EEA. It is highly unlikely that we'll get free trade access to the EU without agreeing to free movement; I think it's more likely than not that we'd re-enter the EEA and grant free movement if we left the EU. As for your notion that the British people wouldn't stand for it; given that even if Brexit wins it's likely to be a narrow victory and that many Brexiters advocate rejoining the EEA I'm not sure what basis there is for your claim.

Look, I know you hate Britain and want to see it consigned to the scrap-heap as a nation, but there's no certainty either way - can you guarantee me for example, that in 5 years time 80 million Turkish citizens won't have the right to come and live and work in the UK? If you decide to answer realistically then no, you can't offer that guarantee. It's fundamentally a question of who you want to govern Britain - the parliament in London or the bureaucrats in Brussels (I know there's a parliament there too, but they don't have any power compared to the EC). If we take back control of our borders, then the government can decide (a lot quicker than anything gets decided in Brussels) what sort of relationship we want with the EU then go into negotiations.

Personally I think of what arch-federalist Jacques Delors said about this subject ages ago, which was that if Britain didn't want to be subsumed into this dream of a federal super-state then that was fine, they'd go on having friendly relations with Britain and agree a trade deal and life would go on.

Or they could just not pay it, avoid the hassle, and go somewhere else. Will it result in a total collapse? No. Will it further reduce our appeal and thus cost us money? Yes.

I'll risk it, unlike you I'm quite confident in Britain and what it offers both as a tourist destination and as a place for Higher Education.

 

[MikeB]

This is highly unlikely. The likelyhood is that we will sign treaties with other nations - just as we currently have hundreds of - and be bound by those treaties. We will not suddenly become free to do what we want to do; we will continue to be players in a global world where we constantly make new deals with other nations for our benefit and theirs.



That's the European Court of Human Rights. This referendum does not affect our relationship with the ECHR because it is not part of the EU but part of a separate treaty.



Euromyth

Very selective in your quoting me, all I am after is UK self determination, if we make a trade treaty with another country it will have no impact on our criminal law for example.

The reference to fruit was light hearted, so you got me on that one

No one is suggesting we truelly become an island, of course we will trade with others and make agreements, the point is it will be an agreement we can control and agree to or walk away from.

The EU is heading fast into a position where entire countries wishes are ignored, it's got to big, our governments have sold us down the river into further and further agreements that then cannot be changed by the next government, doesn't this make the whole concept of us choosing who rules us more and more watered down at each election, we are effectively in a position that the rights of the British voter mean less and less, you can extend this argument to our parliament full stop where for years the English haven't been able to control our own wishes whilst the Scots can influence ours and we have to grin and bear it

 

[Mr Jack]

Look, I know you hate Britain...

...but there's no certainty either way - can you guarantee me for example, that in 5 years time 80 million Turkish citizens won't have the right to come and live and work in the UK?

In five years time? Yes. I can. On a longer timeframe, no; but since the UK benefits from immigration this is a good thing.

I fundamentally a question of who you want to govern Britain - the parliament in London or the bureaucrats in Brussels (I know there's a parliament there too, but they don't have any power compared to the EC). If we take back control of our borders, then the government can decide (a lot quicker than anything gets decided in Brussels) what sort of relationship we want with the EU then go into negotiations.

The idea that Britain will gain more power to govern itself after a Brexit is fatally flawed. We live in a global world, our ability to influence and control that world depends on how we interact with other nations; being part of the EU gives us a much greater influence in the world that leaving it does.

Worse still is what happens when we adopt the 'Norway Option' and return to the EEA. Then we end up being bound by the majority of EU rules while having not a single say over them. Some increased sovereignty!

I'll risk it, unlike you I'm quite confident in Britain and what it offers both as a tourist destination and as a place for Higher Education.

Tory government policy has already collapsed the number of Indian students coming to be educated in the UK. Do not be so blasé about the ability of the UK to compete internationally in the fact of hostile government policy.

 

[datalol-jack]

... question of who you want to govern Britain - the parliament in London or the bureaucrats in Brussels ...

And it is governed by the parliament in London! A fraction of shared laws and regulation with Europe, considering our own regulatory bolt-ons which make it far worse than it really is, is a fair price to pay for the full access to the biggest common market in the world and greater influence on the decisions that affect it.

We've already got plenty of exemptions, including the right to pretty much pick and choose what we take from Brussels and ratify here. Contrary to the popular rumour, the EUP doesn't have the legislative initiative or priority here.

I'll risk it, unlike you I'm quite confident in Britain and what it offers both as a tourist destination and as a place for Higher Education.

Not if the Higher Education system implodes without the extra cash against the global competition, which shall shortly include huge merged institutions on the continent. And having a solid research base is as vital as pushing more undergrads through the mill.

 

[MikeB]

In five years time? Yes. I can. On a longer timeframe, no; but since the UK benefits from immigration this is a good thing.

Only going to respond to this bit, immigration is a great thing, enriches society no end, but controlled immigration with integration is what is needed, the sheer volumes that are possible will completely eliminate our culture within a couple of generations, surely your not arguing for that?

 

[datalol-jack]

Only going to respond to this bit, immigration is a great thing, enriches society no end, but controlled immigration with integration is what is needed, the sheer volumes that are possible will completely eliminate our culture within a couple of generations, surely your not arguing for that?

Nonsense! I'm sure they said the same thing since the Romans, and wait, we're still chirpily here, with a vibrant, robust and world-renowned culture! Don't be a nostalgic, be British!

 

[Mr Jack]

Only going to respond to this bit, immigration is a great thing, enriches society no end, but controlled immigration with integration is what is needed, the sheer volumes that are possible will completely eliminate our culture within a couple of generations, surely your not arguing for that?

I don't believe the current levels of immigration from Poland, Romania, etc. will be sustained for long periods of time, nor do I believe that - if Turkey joins - we will see a long term trend of emigration to the UK. If you look at historical trends in Immigration you will see that the rates of immigration and emigration fluctuate over time and that is very rare to see large, sustained, flows from country to country. We should enjoy the immigration we have now while it lasts; it will not persist forever.

 

[MikeB]

I moved from London to Norfolk to retain my Britishness, so your unlikely to persuade me

Going back to London and seeing whats happened in Walthamstow, Leytonstone,Manor Park etc makes me very sad, that's where I grew up and is totally unrecognisable, that's in 1 generation

Anyway didnt want to drag this too far off topic

 

[kitch9]

In five years time? Yes. I can. On a longer timeframe, no; but since the UK benefits from immigration this is a good thing.



The idea that Britain will gain more power to govern itself after a Brexit is fatally flawed. We live in a global world, our ability to influence and control that world depends on how we interact with other nations; being part of the EU gives us a much greater influence in the world that leaving it does.

Worse still is what happens when we adopt the 'Norway Option' and return to the EEA. Then we end up being bound by the majority of EU rules while having not a single say over them. Some increased sovereignty!



Tory government policy has already collapsed the number of Indian students coming to be educated in the UK. Do not be so blasé about the ability of the UK to compete internationally in the fact of hostile government policy.

Parts of the UK benefits from immigration, places like London and the south get the quality immigrants who can speak English and have an education.

Meanwhile up north we get the filth dumped by the street load who infest entire areas and create no go zones.

Strong language I know but you want to see the sess pit of human despair some areas of Northern cities have become.

I realise that you may not be able to see the problem from your window in the leafy suburbs but it will come to you eventually and I guarantee you'll want out. Probably by around the point that you avoid going into your town centre as you feel it's no longer that safe anymore.