Poll: The EU Referendum: What Will You Vote? (New Poll)

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?


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I don't believe the current levels of immigration from Poland, Romania, etc. will be sustained for long periods of time, nor do I believe that - if Turkey joins - we will see a long term trend of emigration to the UK. If you look at historical trends in Immigration you will see that the rates of immigration and emigration fluctuate over time and that is very rare to see large, sustained, flows from country to country. We should enjoy the immigration we have now while it lasts; it will not persist forever.

It's also important to point out that the percentage of British citizens who weren't born here, at about ~12% of the population (a fairly steady ratio), isn't sufficient to wipe out anyone or anything; even if you're on the alarmist side, and believe the headlines you read from the popular press.

MikeB said:
I moved from London to Norfolk to retain my Britishness, so your unlikely to persuade me.

At least you're honest, I suppose.

Meanwhile up north we get the filth dumped by the street load who infest entire areas and create no go zones.

They're charmed too, I'm sure. And no, not every person who's posting for the Ins is ignorant of the North, nor the economic problems there.
 
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LOL

In five years time? Yes. I can. On a longer timeframe, no; but since the UK benefits from immigration this is a good thing.

Delusions of grandeur or what? You can't guarantee anything. I'll leave it to fellow GDers to make up their minds if giving 80 million Turkish citizens the right to live and work in the UK is a good thing or not...

The idea that Britain will gain more power to govern itself after a Brexit is fatally flawed. We live in a global world, our ability to influence and control that world depends on how we interact with other nations; being part of the EU gives us a much greater influence in the world that leaving it does.

Worse still is what happens when we adopt the 'Norway Option' and return to the EEA. Then we end up being bound by the majority of EU rules while having not a single say over them. Some increased sovereignty!

Of course we'll have more influence if we keep that influence, rather than giving it away to Brussels. We're not Norway, what they've decided their relationship is with the EU might not be appropriate for us. Why is it though, if Norway's deal with the EU is so terrible as you keep insinuating, why do Norway not join the EU?

Tory government policy has already collapsed the number of Indian students coming to be educated in the UK. Do not be so blasé about the ability of the UK to compete internationally in the fact of hostile government policy.

Was this when they shut down a load of bogus language colleges which meant a lot of people, who really should never have been let into the country in the first place, couldn't get in anymore?
 
LOL
Delusions of grandeur or what? You can't guarantee anything. I'll leave it to fellow GDers to make up their minds if giving 80 million Turkish citizens the right to live and work in the UK is a good thing or not...

Well, no. Again, it's pure speculation re Turkey's ascension to the EU. What Merkel actually said was that 'if you help us with the migrant crisis, we'll contemplate your suggestion of a bid'; it's not a binding legal agreement, and from what I hear the talks aren't going that well anyway.

Turkey has both political and economic issues in the way of rapid membership acquisition. But keeping them guessing is better than letting them fall in Putin's warm embrace geopolitically.

Nonetheless, this: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=URISERV:l14536

With many in the EU opposed to Turkey's membership, how likely do you think the 'unanimous' clauses in the EC and the ratification process will fare? Even we didn't get in on the first attempt with de Gaulle ****-blocking us originally.
 
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As is Mr Jack's suggestion that we won't be able to do business with the EU without accepting free movement.

No, that is what's available to glean from the association arrangements of the EU, the founding treaties of the EU, the official stance of the EC and the departure clause in the Lisbon Treaty.

We also know that out of all the options on the Leavers' bill, the sacrifice of better trade arrangements in favour of ending free movement with the EU is both the most criticised option internally and the least likely, though vocal as a PR talking point. Which I think is why some people cling on to it so much now.
 
Delusions of grandeur or what? You can't guarantee anything.

Whenever new states have joined there has been a waiting period of time before they can

Of course we'll have more influence if we keep that influence, rather than giving it away to Brussels.

We don't "give away" influence to Brussels we trade it for influence over the policies of the EU. This trade benefits us.

We're not Norway, what they've decided their relationship is with the EU might not be appropriate for us. Why is it though, if Norway's deal with the EU is so terrible as you keep insinuating, why do Norway not join the EU?

They'd be better off if they did.

Was this when they shut down a load of bogus language colleges which meant a lot of people, who really should never have been let into the country in the first place, couldn't get in anymore?

No.
 
We don't "give away" influence to Brussels we trade it for influence over the policies of the EU. This trade benefits us.

interesting comment on an economist article re: our 'influence'

Since records began in 1996, the UK has not managed to prevent a single proposal placed in front of the Council of Ministers from becoming European law. This amounts to 55 measures that the UK opposed that have since become British law. Since 1973 the UK’s voting power in the Council of Ministers has decreased from 17% to 8%, in the European Parliament it has decreased from 20% to 9.5% and in the European Commission it has decreased from 15% to 4%. The UK has about 12% of the EU's population, it provides only 5% of the EU's staff and the situation is set to get worse. More than four in 10 British officials will be enjoying their retirement by 2020 and, based on the number of applicants in recent years, most of them will not be replaced (junior roles have only a 1.2% UK entrance rate). Over the last European Parliamentary term (2009-14),a majority of British MEPs(across UK party lines) opposed 576 motions out of a total 1,936 that were put before the European Parliament .Of those 576 motions, 485 were nonetheless approved by the rest of the Parliament despite the opposition of a majority of British MEPs. This is a failure rate of 84%. This rises to 89% in Economic & Monetary affairs & 98% loss in Budget votes. We are the 2nd worst represented in the EU parliament after France with 839,194 inhabitants per MEP (Lux 76,667 per MEP, Ireland 350,750, Italy 816,000). There is no "British Influence".
 
That "comment" has been spammed by one of the propagandist groups ("Business For Britain" I think) absolutely everywhere (google it up, it's literally posted to hundreds of pages) and as usual it distorts the reality for benefit of creating catchphrases like "since records began in 1996, the UK has not managed to prevent a single proposal placed in front of the Council of Ministers from becoming European law" for example. And just like all the catchphrases before it, every part of that sentence is either untrue or half truth manipulated to fit. Do your own research.
 
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That "comment" has been spammed by one of the propagandist groups ("Business For Britain" I think) absolutely everywhere (google it up, it's literally posted to hundreds of pages) and as usual it distorts the reality for benefit of creating catchphrases like "since records began in 1996, the UK has not managed to prevent a single proposal placed in front of the Council of Ministers from becoming European law" for example. And just like all the catchphrases before it, every part of that sentence is either untrue or half truth manipulated to fit. Do your own research.

You accuse others of providing figures or statements but you seem to only refute them with words and not facts or sources. Unfortunately it is a fact that the UK is out voted many more times then any other nation. http://www.theguardian.com/world/datablog/2015/nov/02/is-uk-winner-or-loser-european-council
 
I realise that you may not be able to see the problem from your window in the leafy suburbs but it will come to you eventually and I guarantee you'll want out. Probably by around the point that you avoid going into your town centre as you feel it's no longer that safe anymore.

I live in Leicester, and not even a leafy suburb of Leicester. Your projection says more about you than it does about me.
 
That "comment" has been spammed by one of the propagandist groups ("Business For Britain" I think) absolutely everywhere (google it up, it's literally posted to hundreds of pages) and as usual it distorts the reality for benefit of creating catchphrases like "since records began in 1996, the UK has not managed to prevent a single proposal placed in front of the Council of Ministers from becoming European law" for example. And just like all the catchphrases before it, every part of that sentence is either untrue or half truth manipulated to fit. Do your own research.

interesting, google agrees with you, it has indeed been spammed all over the place - I wonder if the 'out' campaign have subcontracted the Chinese or Russians to spam messagebords :D

however it doesn't appear to be spreading false information per say, it is still a valid pov
 
You accuse others of providing figures or statements but you seem to only refute them with words and not facts or sources. Unfortunately it is a fact that the UK is out voted many more times then any other nation. http://www.theguardian.com/world/datablog/2015/nov/02/is-uk-winner-or-loser-european-council

And on the winning side in 87% of votes. How terrible!

It's not surprise that the dramatic upturn in being on the losing side coincides with the period in which Cameron has been PM. He is desperately, terminally incompetent in his dealings with the EU.
 
You accuse others of providing figures or statements but you seem to only refute them with words and not facts or sources. Unfortunately it is a fact that the UK is out voted many more times then any other nation. http://www.theguardian.com/world/datablog/2015/nov/02/is-uk-winner-or-loser-european-council

Just do a quick google. This "research" has been debunked many times since Nigel Farage used it for the first time as a catchphrase on BBC Question Time in 2014. Not only it doesn't provide full picture of how CoM works and manipulates statistics for the benefit of the catchphrase but it also doesn't even count 90%+ of decisions that were in line with British voting as "influence". It's equivalent of watching one episode of Britain's Got Talent and concluding that Simon Cowell has no influence in the program because each time he pressed X button between second and third commercial break other judges didn't.
 
...

I realise that you may not be able to see the problem from your window in the leafy suburbs but it will come to you eventually and I guarantee you'll want out. Probably by around the point that you avoid going into your town centre as you feel it's no longer that safe anymore.

I do worry that this is the kind of simple minded drivel that will lead people to believe an exit vote is for the best.

I just hope the opinion of the general public isn't reflected by the opinion of the exit crowd in here.
 
I don't think anything will prevent me voting out now
Europe will Def have bitched us into line of we stay in.
It's clear we didn't get what we want.
Well played eu of we don't have the balls to bail
 
We don't "give away" influence to Brussels we trade it for influence over the policies of the EU. This trade benefits us.

And that trade will go on. You don't have to be part of a country to trade with it.

We saw very recently how much influence we have within the EU. David Cameron made his Bloomberg speech three years ago when he set out the fundamental reforms that he wanted from the EU. Cut to his actual negotiation and he had to ask for very thin gruel indeed to get anything - and even then it was watered down further. Even then it turns out that the deal isn't legally binding - the ECJ is free to amend it, and the European Parliament has to ratify it, and the second largest group within the EP has said they'll ever accept it.

They'd be better off if they did.

Why don't the Norwegian people believe you then? Why don't I believe you when you tell me that we have influence within the EU?


Since you think all immigration is good immigration presumably you're in favour of bogus colleges anyway.
 
That's a bold claim. Do you have any evidence that they send most of the money earned back home? I would imagine that like most people they spend most of their money on housing, food, and other necessities of life, a bit on entertainment and only then have some left that they might send home.

They don't pay for their housing the tax payer does.
You think minimum wage workers pay their own way ? go read the facts.

We have enough people already in this country working and getting huge in work top ups we don't need to open the doors to millions more to claim every in work benefit going.
We even give them money to buy furniture and white goods for their tax payer gifted housing.

Not to mention hotels full of eu migrants charging the tax payer top room rates, don't believe me ? visit some holiday inns travelodges etc in london, the croydon holiday inn is full up with permanent immigrant residents.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-benefits-work-EU-migrants-just-one-year.html and that's just the out of works imagine how big the in work housing benefit tax credits child allowance bill is ! out out out ! our own youth cant even claim housing benefit yet we seem happy to pay for a car washer from romanias rent.
 
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and another thing.....

All of those saying we should stay in are assuming the EU will carry on in it's current form, there's a strong possibility over a short period of time it will fragment to hell, having a major contributor vanish whilst continuing to take on those who withdraw isn't a feasible model

Following the start up model disruption is good, yeah times will be tough for a period but what happens in the aftermath may be significantly better
 
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Well, no. Especially if your claim is that it is: a). perfect b). captures everything c). cost free.

I said it was the best. But as normal you've to change it..oh dear.

As I've already said. Those wanting to come here will show much they do by paying their way.

And if they have to pay more for our system then so be it. Why should the UK tax payer pay for it!
 
And that trade will go on. You don't have to be part of a country to trade with it.

Try reading that again

We saw very recently how much influence we have within the EU. David Cameron made his Bloomberg speech three years ago when he set out the fundamental reforms that he wanted from the EU.

Cameron's incompetence is a reflection on himself not on the EU

Since you think all immigration is good immigration presumably you're in favour of bogus colleges anyway.

Sigh. Since you have difficult with reading comprehension, let me try again: No, the fall in Indian students is not due to a claim down on bogus colleges.
 
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