Poll: The EU Referendum: What Will You Vote? (New Poll)

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

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Insanties_birth said:
That's cool, I'll give it all a read some time tomorrow, thanks for links. I don't mind you not replying to the rest of the post but can I not ask one quick question then, do you not see any proper criticism of the EU? I've yet to see you see anything but a rosy view of the EU so I'd ask you prove your impartiality by at least acknowledging some flaws. It's one thing to see the ideology and believe they can execute it perfectly but is there nothing you fear they are not living up to?
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Sure. Like any self-respecting Europhile, I have a shopping list of things I'd like to do in Europe: mostly greasing a few cogs, here and there; knocking a few heads together; improving the institutions; and so on. But going off the top of my head at this hour...

Phase out the CAP, and re-route its funds directly to:

35%
  • Rural development
  • Enviromental protection
  • International aid fund
  • Small and family farms assistance scheme

65%
  • Healthcare
  • Education
  • Infrastructure
  • Common security and defence policy

The funding formula between the developed member states, with small agricultural sectors, and developing member states, with larger agricultural sectors, should be reviewed in the interim.

Assorted ideas:
  • A proper treasury for the Eurozone; ECB should be divested of its treasury-like functions
  • Joint modern languages school programme across the bloc
  • Having plenaries in Strasbourg is an anachronism and a waste of money -- pick one city for EP, and stick to it
  • Larger Europol
  • Continue to pare back protectionist tendencies on trade in agricultural goods, so a big no to subsidised exports in this regard either
  • Proportional regional recall function for its MEPs (forcing suspensions and byelections in the event of gross misconduct, poor voting attendance without justified reason, misuse of European funds, criminal convictions, etc by public petition)
  • Greater media presence

Madcap stuff:
  • Joint member state pension funds for the Eurozone with optional opt-ins for others
  • Bicameral parliament with selective power transfer from the current EP, Council and Commission to the upper legislative chamber as needed
  • Re-jig MEP numbers to accommodate the elected second chamber
  • Transfer to electronic voting, preferably before I kick the bucket

Minor stuff is a bit technical for GD, and only suitable for fellow political anorak company.
 
to fix Europe is simple:

All votes are PR based on tax payed (have some minimum level for the popular vote).
Common market for services (including utilities).

Honestly though, I have no faith in democracy without universal education.

Actually is way to fix all democratic states UK included.
 
Mr. Bokhari, a Pakistani asylum seeker himself who was handed a nine-month sentence for raiding a London electronics shop,
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if thats true he should be an ex asylum seeker and on a plane back to pakistan.
 
datalol-jack said:
The whole point of the exercise is to have flexibility, opportunity, more freedom and less barriers to business in Europe vs the rest of the world at a reduced cost. The added benefit of peaceful coexistence is also worth as much as the economic freedom. And cheaper travel means you don't have to be wealthy to benefit from the opportunities in the EU.

Further, your visa regime would skew things in favour of large employers who can afford the time and money, as happens with non-EU migration atm.
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If a flexible, opportune system with increased freedom and fewer barriers to business means we have to let everyone with EU citizenship in then I don't want that system. Give me an immigration system that first and foremost works for British people.

Do you really think we have peaceful co-existence in the world today? People often credit the EU with securing peace and security in Europe, but the reality is that it's only been going a relatively short time and now we have Greece on the verge of becoming a failed state, Russia threatening to invade the EU in former Soviet states, and an army of sex pests and jihadis marching around central Europe. Doesn't sound particularly secure for European people to me.
 
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datalol-jack said:
The whole point of the exercise is to have flexibility, opportunity, more freedom and less barriers to business in Europe vs the rest of the world at a reduced cost. The added benefit of peaceful coexistence is also worth as much as the economic freedom. And cheaper travel means you don't have to be wealthy to benefit from the opportunities in the EU.
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For how wonderful the EU is for business, it seems like we've been in a perpetual financial crisis for the last decade and a few countries are in serious trouble. Doesn't seem all that wonderful or effective in the grand scheme of things
 
Mr Jack said:
And 274,000 filled by Brits. And unemployment down to the lowest level in a decade. Not exactly evidence of British people being pushed out of jobs, is it?
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Hang on, lets do some maths here

200,000 + 274,000 = 474,000

200,000 / 474,000 = 0.42

So migrants filled in 42% of jobs last quarter and you don't think British people being pushed out of jobs?

Ding ding ding, i think we have our first "doing jobs what lazy brits don't want to do" comment here!
 
robgmun said:
Hang on, lets do some maths here

200,000 + 274,000 = 474,000

200,000 / 474,000 = 0.42

So migrants filled in 42% of jobs last quarter and you don't think British people being pushed out of jobs?

Ding ding ding, i think we have our first "doing jobs what lazy brits don't want to do" comment here!
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So the majority of new jobs, the 58% you so kindly ignore, go to brits in the quarter; we are creating jobs at steady a rate; and the UK is approaching full-employment as defined by OECD. If we keep going at this 'shocking rate', we will hit 3% unemployment before you can say Beveridge. :D And you're still miffed?

Your understanding of economics astounds me, as always.:p You do realise that even with 0 net migration, perfect economic conditions and businesses creating redundant jobs left, right and centre, anywhere between 2%-5% unemployment would still exist; hence the welfare state?
 
robgmun said:
So migrants filled in 42% of jobs last quarter and you don't think British people being pushed out of jobs?
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No, I don't. If brits were being pushed out of jobs we'd see an increase in unemployment. We don't. What's actually happening is that the extra growth in our economy is helping employ more people. This is not a zero sum game.

Ding ding ding, i think we have our first "doing jobs what lazy brits don't want to do" comment here!
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Try arguing with positions people actually put forward instead of making up your own silly interpretation.
 
scorza said:
If a flexible, opportune system with increased freedom and fewer barriers to business means we have to let everyone with EU citizenship in then I don't want that system. Give me an immigration system that first and foremost works for British people.
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So you want broadly protectionist policies, regardless of costs incurred and more tax that may be needed to fund them -- gotcha. Fair enough. At least you're are honest. The British electorate isn't particularly keen on all three though. How would you sell it to the public, and win the referendum?

Although my worry would still be, if we cannot out compete a few 'types', as some people here refer to Eastern EU chaps, on our home turf, what would happen to us in the big wide world with such a competitive 'advantage'?;) I agree with helping people to skill-up, retrain and stay above the water out of work; but someone has to pay for all of that with economic activity, and migrants who come here fill that gap and create wealth.

scorza said:
Do you really think we have peaceful co-existence in the world today? People often credit the EU with securing peace and security in Europe, but the reality is that it's only been going a relatively short time and now we have Greece on the verge of becoming a failed state, Russia threatening to invade the EU in former Soviet states, and an army of sex pests and jihadis marching around central Europe. Doesn't sound particularly secure for European people to me.
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Yes. The world is ending every day on the TV, in the rags and online; people who believe them are either ignorant of history, or haven't actually looked at their adult life that closely. Perception of crisis isn't crisis; just like people's opinion about levels of crime is wildly divergent of actual crime on the ground. And yes, I did look at historic crime stats, body counts before and after the EU, frequency of regional conflicts, etc. The trend doesn't back you up.

Of course, we will always have geopolitical rivals and risks. Heaven on earth isn't really what I'm suggesting. NATO+EU makes a concentrated attack on or prolonged military conflict across Europe a remote possibility. If Europe remains together, countries like Russia can be economically crushed, without a shot being fired. It's hard to make war, or be the archetypical Russian autocrat, on an empty purse. Then we will all be back at the negotiating table, bashing out deals for gas and oil. Putin has his tactics, we have ours.

Greece wasn't allowed to fail and is in remission. Hardly a failed state in the making. But it had a lot of debt on its books. So recovery won't happen overnight, as some people expect. I don't necessarily agree fully with how negotiators handled the bailout terms, but then again I'm not providing most of the funds either.

an army of sex pests and jihadis
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Send this definition of refugees to the UNHCR, see if he agrees. We treat people as individuals equal before the law. It really is that simple.
 
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