Poll: The EU Referendum: What Will You Vote? (New Poll)

[[TW]Fox]

My problem with immigration is that it lets criminals in as well, and when they're in, even if they offend it's near impossible to get rid of them.

How big a problem is that really? This is a high profile one I agree, barely a week goes past without an outraged Daily Mail article about somebody who we can't deport, but what are the real numbers?

I doubt criminals would have any real issue with simply entering illegally anyway. By their very nature they have demonstrated that the law isn't really something they have much respect for. Plenty of countries have criminals illegally present there. Not sure how leaving the EU would really make much of a difference in this regard.

 

[Tute]

I cannot see it being as easy for them to enter if we were not part of the EU. For starters, the Schengen agreement wouldn't stand. Also it would close the door on things like abusing the EUHR laws and courts to delay the process.

 

[Kenai]

My problem with immigration is that it lets criminals in as well, and when they're in, even if they offend it's near impossible to get rid of them.

This is hardly an EU immigrant only problem - what would leaving the EU achieve? We're just as useless at keeping away the bad eggs with regards the immigration we DO control, so I don't understand why people would expect anything to change.

 

[Tute]

Well exactly Kenai. We can't deal with what we do have so why would we want to take more issues on, at a time when public services are being cut?

 

[[TW]Fox]

I cannot see it being as easy for them to enter if we were not part of the EU. For starters, the Schengen agreement wouldn't stand.

We are not signatories to the Schengen agreement, it doesn't stand anyway!

Also it would close the door on things like abusing the EUHR laws and courts to delay the process.

The EUCHR is seperate to the EU.

This is what I mean about people grabbing a view - you dislike Schengen and the EUCHR and would vote 'No' as a result, even though neither of these things are strictly relevant.

There are loads of people who appear to be anti EU membership for a bunch of issues that wouldnt change!

 

[Danthus]

What negative effects have you suffered as a result of EU immigration? This is a genuine question - there appears to be huge negative sentiment against EU immigration and it would be helpful to understand if this is because people feel genuinely affected or because they don't like what they read in the paper or similar.

Personally, none.

I wasn't highlighting the issue in the sense that I had a problem with it.

I deal with lots of immigrants on a daily basis, apart from the odd language issue that is about as bad as it gets.

In fact in my experience I would say that some of them are being exploited, their living conditions for example, some of the accommodation I visit is awful.

Crewe is a microcosm of immigration, there are clearly two types locally, the majority being unskilled, working in the food and warehousing industries locally.

On the other hand you have Bentley where they have a large amount of skilled immigrants, mainly from Germany with others from within EU, some also from India.

I have had neighbours from Germany, India and eastern Europe.

While it is not money directly from the EU, VAG have pumped about £800 million into Crewe, when they bought the marque, the town was fearful that the automotive industry was doomed, it is quite the opposite.

Currently being built is a new office and R&D facility, about £40 million, then there will be the new engine factory for the W12 for the entire VAG group.

 

[sihartley25]

CBI Says :
71% of CBI member businesses report that the UK’s membership of the EU has had an overall positive impact on their business, including 67% of SME members. Only 13% said there had been a negative impact. Overall,78% said they would vote to remain in the EU in a referendum, with 77% of SME’s taking the same position.

http://news.cbi.org.uk/campaigns/ou...t-2-benefits-of-eu-membership-outweigh-costs/

 

[Kenai]

Well exactly Kenai. We can't deal with what we do have so why would we want to take more issues on, at a time when public services are being cut?

The point is, what do you expect would change? If non EU immigrants can get in either as criminals or stay once they are, do you genuinely believe leaving would make them all change their mind and go to France instead?

 

[Danthus]

I doubt that report will say we like a huge pool of cheap labour.

 

[[TW]Fox]

I doubt that report will say we like a huge pool of cheap labour.

It's not that cheap though is it? There isn't a special rate for applicants who are not from the UK. I accept that an increase in demand for employment will naturally lead to a reduction in salaries offered but given that most of this work was minimum wage anyway, the minimum wage still exists and is increasing at a frankly astounding rate anyway how much of a problem is it really?

Are you suggesting Costa would pay the staff 25k a year if it wasn't for those European citizens prepared to serve coffee for minimum wage?

I worked in retail before the EU expansion and guess what, I got minimum wage then, too...

I also accept that there is an underworld of cheap labour working for employers flouting the law but we don't need to escape the EU to fix that, we need to enforce our own laws!

 

[Rosbif]

I think the reference to 'huge pool of cheap labour' has more to do with the hard facts of 400,000 people of working age coming into the country every year.

Who can possibly argue this doesn't exert downward pressure on wages? Its economics 101.

 

[Usher]

Do people actually think that if we left the Eu they would not trade with us? seeing as it's us buying their German French & Italian cars whilst practically everything else we use comes from China.

 

[Danthus]

I think the reference to 'huge pool of cheap labour' has more to do with the hard facts of 400,000 people of working age coming into the country every year.

Who can possibly argue this doesn't exert downward pressure on wages? Its economics 101.

Wages can't be any lower than the NMW though, yes there are exceptions if the employer provides accommodation etc.

A huge labour pool and a NMW wage are good for big business.

 

[datalol-jack]

Sums up my views. It matters not what he has negotiated because most of the 'no' camp* don't care anyway, they want out of the EU because they think it'll get rid of all the foreign people and we can all have nice picket fences again or whatever. Also, the EU stole our high powered hoovers.

*I say most. There are some credible reasons behind not being in the EU and anyone who has bothered to think about this and has rationally come to such a viewpoint I have no issue with.

I thought the entire point of our democratic system was that we elect people to make decisions on our behalf having considered all of the facts, many of which we as an electorate may not be party to or have sufficient understanding of.

What did we gain from the Scottish independence referendum? Nothing, the issue still hasn't gone away has it, even against the backdrop of an enormous crash in oil prices.

Perhaps there should be an entry exam and anyone who cannot demonstrate that they've spent a bit of time learning about the EU and used this knowledge to decide if they want to be in and out rather than basing views on perception from the media can't vote?

Education, education, education (not necessarily formal). Without it, any plebiscite is no better than a pub brawl. But there are still believers in direct and unqualified mass democracy out here, otherwise known as mob rule -- it feels like at least you're doing something, and presumably everyone knows what they want and can see the future. For populist politics outcome is never the goal.

From this rumbling brook the river of discontent rages forth about us 'losing power' in any bloc. It's the same argument that would be deployed against representative democracy in a new guise -- power by proxy isn't power. It's a comforting thought of decisive politics and certain truths which make this atavism rear its ugly head again and again and again. People like simple answers!

The problem lies in the fact that a mass outpour of emotion is then equated with a fair, unbiased, 'natural' and representative decision based on facts of the matter. Like our previous referenda and elections demonstrate regularly this isn't quite so. Rove, Crosby, and the like, only seized upon the post-modern concepts of medium as the message and synthetic fact --they didn't invent them, and it was a valid approach to treat at least half of the truth of our being. Thus working albeit damaging electoral strategies; and politics as entertainment and fear. People pin their almost sub-concious dissatisfaction at this state of affairs on the establishment, however it manifests, instead of any healthy introspection, and then it's time for another song and dance whether you're on the side of truth, power or just plain common sense. I disagree with the method, but hope hasn't been a big winner lately.

However, what else has been tried, as an alternative to democracy, and hasn't resulted in complete disaster? I'm quite happy giving our wizened representatives a palpitation or two -- from time to time -- reminds them of their humanity. Can't be helped now.

Anyhow, you're quite right about the hardcore leavers (14% of the population at the last sampling). They've been at it since the formation of the European Coal and Steel Community; and matters of faith are seldom resolved by reality or reason.

 

[scorza]

It's not that cheap though is it? There isn't a special rate for applicants who are not from the UK. I accept that an increase in demand for employment will naturally lead to a reduction in salaries offered but given that most of this work was minimum wage anyway, the minimum wage still exists and is increasing at a frankly astounding rate anyway how much of a problem is it really?

Are you suggesting Costa would pay the staff 25k a year if it wasn't for those European citizens prepared to serve coffee for minimum wage?

I worked in retail before the EU expansion and guess what, I got minimum wage then, too...

I also accept that there is an underworld of cheap labour working for employers flouting the law but we don't need to escape the EU to fix that, we need to enforce our own laws!

The minimum wage does stop wages falling much, but what we've seen since 2001 is massive changes to working conditions at the low end of the labour market - zero hour contracts, temp workers, Amazon etc. We've also seen terrible uk productivity in the past few years - if orders are growing at your firm then it's easier to get more unskilled workers than invest in your working practices and skill up your existing workers

Edit: I know this is just anecdotal but when I lived in south London in 1999, my local McDonald's was advertising for staff at £10 an hour, which isn't that far off £25k a year in today's money

 

[Danthus]

It's not that cheap though is it? There isn't a special rate for applicants who are not from the UK. I accept that an increase in demand for employment will naturally lead to a reduction in salaries offered but given that most of this work was minimum wage anyway, the minimum wage still exists and is increasing at a frankly astounding rate anyway how much of a problem is it really?

Are you suggesting Costa would pay the staff 25k a year if it wasn't for those European citizens prepared to serve coffee for minimum wage?

I worked in retail before the EU expansion and guess what, I got minimum wage then, too...

I also accept that there is an underworld of cheap labour working for employers flouting the law but we don't need to escape the EU to fix that, we need to enforce our own laws!

I don't disagree with any of that.

My point is, the system is stacked in favour of big business. When you scratch below the surface, I don't think people really have an issue with immigrants, they have an issue with the immigration system.

 

[[TW]Fox]

I think the reference to 'huge pool of cheap labour' has more to do with the hard facts of 400,000 people of working age coming into the country every year.

Net migration from the EU in the last full year for which we have data was 183,000 not 400,000. This is the only number that matters in this discussion - surely the bigger issue is that there is an even higher net migration figure for non EU.

Who can possibly argue this doesn't exert downward pressure on wages? Its economics 101.

In a free market economy in an economics textbook you are of course exactly right. But of course the UK is not such a thing and there are legal controls which set a floor on wages. Therefore the end result of a flood of unskilled labour is not rock bottom wages but higher unemployment.

So how is our unemployment rate looking?

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=u...0l3.1935j0j4&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=0&ie=UTF-8

Not bad for a country apparently flooded with cheap EU labour.

 

[[TW]Fox]

I don't disagree with any of that.

My point is, the system is stacked in favour of big business. When you scratch below the surface, I don't think people really have an issue with immigrants, they have an issue with the immigration system.

I think most peoples real issue with immigration into the UK is with immigration from outside the EU. But it all gets merged into one and now 'herp derp, immigrants, no to EU' is gathering a worrying amount of pace.

 

[Danthus]

I think most peoples real issue with immigration into the UK is with immigration from outside the EU. But it all gets merged into one and now 'herp derp, immigrants, no to EU' is gathering a worrying amount of pace.

I can only speak form personal experience, locally the issue is clearly with EU immigration from the likes of Poland, Slovakia and Romania.

 

[Roar87]

I think most peoples real issue with immigration into the UK is with immigration from outside the EU. But it all gets merged into one and now 'herp derp, immigrants, no to EU' is gathering a worrying amount of pace.

Considering Germany has opened it's borders to half the world it's not a stretch of the imagination to think that a fair few of them will end up here, legally or illegally