Poll: The EU Referendum: What Will You Vote? (New Poll)

[Freakbro]

I think most peoples real issue with immigration into the UK is with immigration from outside the EU. But it all gets merged into one and now 'herp derp, immigrants, no to EU' is gathering a worrying amount of pace.

I don't know about that, it may be regional but especially around here (Lincs) the issue is specifically with Eastern European immigration as they are the ones who are most prevalent.

The problem with any of this economic migration is not even the headline quantity, but that it is not spread evenly across the country but concentrated into fairly small areas.

The mass employment on the land throughout Lincs and Norfolk has led to very large increases in populations in fairly small rural towns and the infrastructure is struggling to cope.

I can only speak form personal experience, locally the issue is clearly with EU immigration from the likes of Poland, Slovakia and Romania.

Agreed, for the reasons above

 

[scorza]

I think most peoples real issue with immigration into the UK is with immigration from outside the EU. But it all gets merged into one and now 'herp derp, immigrants, no to EU' is gathering a worrying amount of pace.

I don't think people mind where the immigrants come from, it's a pure numbers game - ~50k net migration a year, fine no problem we can absorb that and it helps our economy. ~350k a year then people start seeing their local services stretched and wonder about the social cost

 

[Rosbif]

I don't think people mind where the immigrants come from, it's a pure numbers game - ~50k net migration a year, fine no problem we can absorb that and it helps our economy. ~350k a year then people start seeing their local services stretched and wonder about the social cost

"herp derp ur a racist" apparently.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Considering Germany has opened it's borders to half the world it's not a stretch of the imagination to think that a fair few of them will end up here, legally or illegally

At the moment it's just that - supposition.

'Perhaps XYZ might happen, NO TO EU'. Seems dangerous.

If they end up here illegally they'll end up here illegally whether we are in the EU or not - because they'll be here... illegally.

No matter how obviously ridiculous the decision Germany took has played out to be I don't think the intention is to hand them all residency and German passports - they are officially 'refugees' after all. Therefore it's currently just scaremongering to suggest they'll all come here.

Why would they come here anyway? Lets imagine they were taking a path to citizenship - by the time they get it they'll have lived in Germany for years, presumably speak the language as well if not better than English and Germany is a large, powerful country. Why move to the UK from there?

 

[[TW]Fox]

I don't think people mind where the immigrants come from, it's a pure numbers game - ~50k net migration a year, fine no problem we can absorb that and it helps our economy. ~350k a year then people start seeing their local services stretched and wonder about the social cost

Which is absolutely reasonable but doesn't change the fact that the bigger problem is non EU immigration. There is almost no focus on that and yet a heck of a lot of focus on the EU. It seems like we are trying to solve the wrong problem.

 

[Lord-Jaffa]

I honestly have no idea how leaving the EU or even staying put affects us, there is literally no information being talked about how it would affect us now or in the future.

That is the frightening thing, this type of decision should not be left upto your everyday citizen. Sometimes I honestly struggle to hear English being spoken by anyone in my local towns, if that makes me some kind of herp derp racist then whatever. I nor anyone else on this forum is qualified to make such a decision as this.

 

[Mr Jack]

I've seen comments from ScotNats living in England saying they're going to vote 'Leave' in order to bolster the argument Scottish independence even though they want to stay in the EU

 

[datalol-jack]

The minimum wage does stop wages falling much, but what we've seen since 2001 is massive changes to working conditions at the low end of the labour market - zero hour contracts, temp workers, Amazon etc. We've also seen terrible uk productivity in the past few years - if orders are growing at your firm then it's easier to get more unskilled workers than invest in your working practices and skill up your existing workers

Edit: I know this is just anecdotal but when I lived in south London in 1999, my local McDonald's was advertising for staff at £10 an hour, which isn't that far off £25k a year in today's money

So American, not even global, trends imported by American companies, expanding to franchises based on the American model? Do you think business leaders will stop exchanging management ideas and business models because we leave the EU? Will the SMEs and large companies refusing this optimisation mantra be under any different economic pressure with their more ruthless or pragmatic competitors? Will a more worker-friendly party come to power shortly after our departure? Will the working conditions regress to some idyllic past template? Will Amazon, Google and co suddenly disintegrate, or drastically change their employment and tax policies?

I'd take a rain-check on that, scorza. If anything, the EU is keeping some of the most egregious excesses in check, from privacy to basic workers' rights. [waits for the chap who lost his job because of Health and Safety to come back] Everyone has anecdotes -- but what's the truth, and who is really to blame if that's your game?

Show me the EU treaty which writes into international law that all low-skilled jobs shall be insecure, zero-hour affairs? The London point is moot -- wages in expensive cities always outperform the national average, for very good reasons.

 

[deuse]

In a free market economy in an economics textbook you are of course exactly right. But of course the UK is not such a thing and there are legal controls which set a floor on wages. Therefore the end result of a flood of unskilled labour is not rock bottom wages but higher unemployment.

So how is our unemployment rate looking?

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=u...0l3.1935j0j4&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=0&ie=UTF-8

Not bad for a country apparently flooded with cheap EU labour.

What you and other people have forgot is that when someone has been on the dole for a year
they go on to get back work or other coursers. They are taken off the unemployment figure.

At least that's how it worked last year.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Edit: I know this is just anecdotal but when I lived in south London in 1999, my local McDonald's was advertising for staff at £10 an hour, which isn't that far off £25k a year in today's money

You are right, it is anecdotal. You cannot prove it, it sounds incredibly unlikely and you ought to just stop bringing it up as a result.

 

[datalol-jack]

I've seen comments from ScotNats living in England saying they're going to vote 'Leave' in order to bolster the argument Scottish independence even though they want to stay in the EU

Charming logic right there, but even Scottish nationalists weren't greatly fond of CyberNats. Maybe the Cybers need to vent too?

 

[datalol-jack]

"herp derp ur a racist" apparently.

Thing is, our international student numbers from the EU are what... three times the number? So setting an arbitrarily low cap outside of the EU will be simply an exercise of whom or which industry sector you want to hurt most. If you then start making fudges on the points system and creating exemption categories, for say high skilled or high net worth people only, you'll still end up overshooting the idyllic fantasy figure of 'tens of thousands'. Ten tens of thousands is more like it.

People refuse to see that because a) they want more Commonwealth migration anyway, and don't care about the numbers b) want Fortress Britain at all costs, damn the consequences.* Neither is a very sound or mutually inclusive argument. Which is why you keep seeing ugly spats between the two different kinds of leaver - the globalist and the little guy (under threat, apparently).

* Or they simply can't count, and gross and net are beyond them...

 

[Mr Jack]

The minimum wage does stop wages falling much, but what we've seen since 2001 is massive changes to working conditions at the low end of the labour market - zero hour contracts, temp workers, Amazon etc. We've also seen terrible uk productivity in the past few years - if orders are growing at your firm then it's easier to get more unskilled workers than invest in your working practices and skill up your existing workers.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

I've noticed that televisions have got massively cheaper since 2001. In 2001 a huge, bulky 32" CRT could cost a £1000. Now you get can a high definition 42" flatscreen TV for less than £400. It's wonderful how immigrants have brought down the price of TVs!

(In case anyone is too thick to realise it: I'm not saying TVs are actually cheaper because immigration)

 

[Danthus]

Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

I've noticed that televisions have got massively cheaper since 2001. In 2001 a huge, bulky 32" CRT could cost a £1000. Now you get can a high definition 42" flatscreen TV for less than £400. It's wonderful how immigrants have brought down the price of TVs!

(In case anyone is too thick to realise it: I'm not saying TVs are actually cheaper because immigration)

Some goods are cheaper becasue they are made in the EU though. Panasonic and LG make white goods in the EU meaning they don't have to pay import duties from Japan and South Korea.

 

[norm]

I've noticed that televisions have got massively cheaper since 2001. In 2001 a huge, bulky 32" CRT could cost a £1000. Now you get can a high definition 42" flatscreen TV for less than £400.

Two very different technologies.

 

[Danthus]

Two very different technologies.

Panasonic and LG also have TV's built in Turkey.

 

[Jono8]

Edit: I know this is just anecdotal but when I lived in south London in 1999, my local McDonald's was advertising for staff at £10 an hour, which isn't that far off £25k a year in today's money

I find that extremely hard to believe.

 

[scorza]

I find that extremely hard to believe.

I couldn't believe it either, but I swear it's true. Good staff were hard to come by back then it seems. I know McDonald's jobs have a bad rep, but I think they often appear in these top employer surveys.

 

[Dis86]

I couldn't believe it either, but I swear it's true. Good staff were hard to come by back then it seems. I know McDonald's jobs have a bad rep, but I think they often appear in these top employer surveys.

I know a few who have worked there and all rated it highly.

 

[datalol-jack]

I agree with Old Coals and Freakbro on the issue of labour concentration, though. It's also somewhat complicated by the movement of flexible workers internally. If you don't have a mortgaged house, settled family and other local responsibilities to worry about, it's far easier to get on one's bike, and it is a huge competitive advantage in the climate of agencies and short term contracts in low-skilled sectors. Surges around expanding employers or seasonal needs spring up as a result, with often little discretionary funding available from the central government to the affected councils.

Our pockets of low-skilled labour however are fairly localised, established and possess high inertia. The former mining towns in Wales being a case in point. Or take the generational factory work around Greater Manchester. Like with navvies in the bygone days, worker solidarity doesn't extend to transitory labourers and, as in scorza's warped reality, stereotypes are born to be passed down as community myths. While the truth isn't quote so straightforward.

Again, this is laid at the gates of Brussels without any obvious evidence of guilt. And that's before we get to the issue of highly qualified people from Europe not minding taking up casual work, or something below their standard, while they can certify, study-up or search for better jobs. This mirrors the overall labour market in the country, though. But far from the 'benefits first' myth perpetuated here and on Facebook.