Poll: The EU Referendum: What Will You Vote?

[v0n]

Is it really such a wacky idea that the UK should be able to turn away the human trash that can freely come here from inside the EU? (..) Yes Brits are flooding out of Dover to be picker/packers in Romania, how could we be so short-sighted as to throw away this right.

Maybe not picker/packer in Romania, but what about beaches of Spain and Portugal filled with British expats after they sold their council houses in South East for six figures?

Is it really worth having our sovereignty eroded for the sake of filling in some forms when you have to travel abroad?

You would have to explain first how Kasia picking fruit or Andrei cleaning toilets actually erodes "our sovereignty"

Well of course I don't want that lol - that's a ridiculous notion. All I want is what's best for Britain and her citizens. I just want Britain to be a nice place to live, attract the best people from around the world to do the jobs with the skills we lack. Currently the racist EU rules prevent us from doing that by forcing us to discriminate unfairly in favour of citizens from EU countries.

EU rules don't prevent or discriminate at all, in fact it's the opposite. It tells you to treat all subjects under its care equally. EU rules also do not dictate how Britain treat work immigrants from other countries. But then again - the point is - you are just dressing up your true nationalist manifesto under false pretence (pretending some EU rules are "racist" etc). It's the worst thing you can do, because you are asterisking your message, then you have to finish it and the disguise is very short lived.

You are saying "I don't think it is fair we allow everyone from EU to stay and work, but don't afford Aussies or Indians the same right*", but the pretence is so obvious you immediately have to disclose the rest of the message "I think we should strip that right from everyone".

Not only you treat your adversaries as if they were stupid, but the way you create it suggests that you know what's right - you know equality - as in - freedom of movement across the board, for all - would be noble and righteous enough idea to disguise your exact opposite cause as.

That kind of prevarication is useless to propaganda. It is as if some Nazi said "I don't think it was fair to single out Jews and Gipsies as sub human and selectively mistreat them" and then immediately had to add "because all non-Germans are sub human and all of them should be sorted out equally". If you are going to feign something bad or unpopular as virtue, it cannot have that kind of asterisk/follow up. It should standalone, self supporting and self sustaining - try something like "I don't support EU's freedom of movement, because I'm afraid Britain attracts and absorbs the most entrepreneurial workers from countries that need their best and vanguard workforce to become more prosperous". (whacks against table). There!

 

[scorza]

And?

Why does that mean the 1.8 million citizens don't benefit from the EU?

So which EU country do you live and work in Mr Jack?

You've failed to present any argument to demonstrate that leaving the EU will affect these people in any way, shape or form.

The idea that it would be as easy to live and work in the EU without the freedom to live and work there is also absurd. As it stands I can easily move to the EU, get a job and be assured that my partner can seek work there with ease; no such ease applies to getting a job in the US. I can also be assured that if I lose said job I can stay in my home and seek a new job; no such security attaches to jobs in other countries.

Nevertheless, more Brits prefer to emigrate to non-EU countries despite all these "protections" that are in place (though you need to read up on what happens to Brits in the EU who run out of money, state protection seems to be distinctly lacking). Perhaps there's more to it than these much-vaunted liberal ideals? Perhaps something simple like language...

Nothing about EU laws requires us to cut immigration from elsewhere. That is Tory policy.

It's a zero-sum game - somebody wins, somebody loses. The more immigrants we take from the EU the less we are able to take from non-EU countries and Brussels knows this.

This idea that the EU makes decisions without us is complete nonsense; decisions are made by the EU either by (a) elected representatives or (b) negotiation by sovereign governments in which we're represented by our elected government.

And the idea that Britain would be able to make better deals is also highly dubious; the extra weight of the EU puts it in a much better position to negotiate with other countries.

The EU also represents all 28 member states at these negotiations, each member state has very different economies. I don't see how it's possible to get a good deal for each country, it'd make far more sense to conduct our own trade negotiations - we're the world's sixth largest economy, it's not like we lack for clout on the global stage.

 

[Closing]

Voting to stay in the EU is utter, utter madness... are you lot living on the same island as I am or are you all living in sky high ivory towers in the outer hebrides?

Come take a trip to Hounslow & Southall sometime, you'll love it!

 

[Mr Jack]

So which EU country do you live and work in Mr Jack?

The UK.

You've failed to present any argument to demonstrate that leaving the EU will affect these people in any way, shape or form.

No, you've simply ignored them.

Nevertheless, more Brits prefer to emigrate to non-EU countries despite all these "protections" that are in place (though you need to read up on what happens to Brits in the EU who run out of money, state protection seems to be distinctly lacking). Perhaps there's more to it than these much-vaunted liberal ideals? Perhaps something simple like language...

Gosh, might language make a difference? I'd have never guessed Let me ask a simple question: if the UK and the US had an EU-style freedom to work arrangement do you think more or less people would live in the US?

It's a zero-sum game - somebody wins, somebody loses. The more immigrants we take from the EU the less we are able to take from non-EU countries and Brussels knows this.

It's not a zero-sum game. There is no fixed limit on immigration. The only reason that there has been any tightening of non-EU immigration is Tory policy.

The EU also represents all 28 member states at these negotiations, each member state has very different economies. I don't see how it's possible to get a good deal for each country, it'd make far more sense to conduct our own trade negotiations - we're the world's sixth largest economy, it's not like we lack for clout on the global stage.

And in the EU there are three of the other top ten largest economies, two of which are larger than ours. Do you really think that lends no weight? The EU - as a block - is much more significant and influential than any one of its parts.

 

[Bear]

Voting to stay in the EU is utter, utter madness... are you lot living on the same island as I am or are you all living in sky high ivory towers in the outer hebrides?

Come take a trip to Hounslow & Southall sometime, you'll love it!

What has towns that are predominately populated by Asians got anything to do with the EU?

 

[Tunney]

So which EU country do you live and work in Mr Jack?

You've failed to present any argument to demonstrate that leaving the EU will affect these people in any way, shape or form.

I've worked in Germany, Poland, Finland, Republic of Korea, America and India. Being able to work in the first three at the drop of the hat was both beneficial to the company I worked for and me. The latter three were a ball-ache to varying degrees. India was just time consuming. America was off and on for nearly a year before finally happening. It was incredibly frustrating not knowing when I'd be out of the country or if it was going to happen at all.

 

[Closing]

What has towns that are predominately populated by Asians got anything to do with the EU?

We have no control of our borders or laws as a member of the EU.

 

[Klunt Bumskrint]

It certainly seems that you don't.

An odd post, whatever gave you that idea?

 

[estebanrey]

There is no fixed limit on immigration..

Yes there are, both physically and practically.

 

[Bear]

We have no control of our borders or laws as a member of the EU.

I get that but what does that got to do with Hounslow and Southall? Asians aren't normally from the EU, they are from the Indian sub continent.

 

[platypus]

We have no control of our borders or laws as a member of the EU.

Nonsense.

 

[Avenged7Fold]

I get that but what does that got to do with Hounslow and Southall? Asians aren't normally from the EU, they are from the Indian sub continent.

Que the standard: they get citizenship from another eu country and then just come over here cause, yeah

In truth most illegals come here on a 'holiday' trip and just never get a return flight until they can find a way to apply for Citizenship one way or another. Many of these people find work in industries that involve cleaning, catering or work in shops run by people from the same community, obviously all work is paid cash in hand. Either way, Leaving the EU won affect people wanting to travel to the UK via this method.

 

[platypus]

An odd post, whatever gave you that idea?

Oh I'm not sure, perhaps it was your well reasoned and argued "Out. asap.".

If you'd posted anything credible as to why you thought we need to leave the EU as soon as possible, we might have been able to see that you'd thought about it.

 

[Mr Jack]

Yes there are, both physically and practically.

While you're technically correct, these limits are so vastly in excess of the current levels of immigration that they're not really relevant.

 

[jas72]

Going back 7 years, my A level maths teacher was unable to gain permanent residence in the UK so had to return to Australia when her visa expired. The school she worked at had great difficulty recruiting good maths teachers and we refused a great one being able to stay and work here. How is that right?

It's not right by why you posting it in this debate?

It was the UK gov who decided she couldn't stay.
It has nothing at all to do with the European Union.

 

[phil675]

While you're technically correct, these limits are so vastly in excess of the current levels of immigration that they're not really relevant.

How many people do you think should be allowed to emigrate to Britain a year? What is your idea of too much?

 

[Mr Jack]

How many people do you think should be allowed to emigrate to Britain a year? What is your idea of too much?

I think putting arbitrary numbers on the levels of immigration is an utterly wrong-headed approach and that the Conservatives are pursuing policies that are actively harmful to the UK in the pursuit of their arbitrary target.

 

[scorza]

The UK.

Exactly

Gosh, might language make a difference? I'd have never guessed Let me ask a simple question: if the UK and the US had an EU-style freedom to work arrangement do you think more or less people would live in the US?

So you now agree that Brits have no trouble emigrating to non-EU countries despite there not being any EU-style freedom to work arrangements? The only logical conclusion is that Brits are still going to have no problem emigrating to EU nations if we leave the EU.

Of course there's going to be an increase in immigration if you remove barriers - I can't see why on earth the US would sign up to such a free movement agreement with us despite us speaking the same language so why the hell did we sign one with the EU?

It's not a zero-sum game. There is no fixed limit on immigration. The only reason that there has been any tightening of non-EU immigration is Tory policy.

Don't be ridiculous of course it's zero-sum. Sorry to introduce you to a bit of reality but we can't just let everyone who wants to come here into the country - there's already pressure on housing, schools, hospitals, jobs etc. The more EU migrants we take the fewer non-EU migrants we can afford to take. It'd be a complete disaster to scrap national borders as the Schengen area has found out to its cost this summer. No country in the world has totally uncontrolled immigration and every EU nation imposes racist limits on immigration from non-EU countries. Why do you think that is?

That's ignoring that net immigration to the UK is currently running at an unsustainable 350k a year and there's not a damn thing we can do about it because Brussels won't let us control our own borders.

And in the EU there are three of the other top ten largest economies, two of which are larger than ours. Do you really think that lends no weight? The EU - as a block - is much more significant and influential than any one of its parts.

... and the EU is happy to wield that influence for the benefit of Germany but not us. Those clowns in Brussels march to Merkel's beat and no-one else's, we'd be much better off outside the EU negotiating better deals for ourselves.

 

[RDM]

We have no control of our borders or laws as a member of the EU.

While we have no control over EU residents we do have control of those from outside of the EU. So leaving the EU will have no real impact there. It seems that you have a fundamental lack of understanding of immigration.

 

[Mr Jack]

Exactly

I don't know what pathetic point you're trying to make. Just because I live and work in the UK now doesn't mean I won't benefit in the future or - since my partner is German and enjoys the EU freedom to work right now - that I don't benefit right now.

So you now agree that Brits have no trouble emigrating to non-EU countries despite there not being any EU-style freedom to work arrangements?

Who says they have "no trouble"? Just because people do something doesn't mean they have "no trouble" doing that thing.

Of course there's going to be an increase in immigration if you remove barriers

So.... in other words people wanting to emigrate benefit from having no barriers?

Don't be ridiculous of course it's zero-sum.

No, it's not. For it to be zero sum the total number of people immigrating would have to be fixed. It isn't. Therefore it isn't zero sum. This isn't hard.

Sorry to introduce you to a bit of reality but we can't just let everyone who wants to come here into the country - there's already pressure on housing, schools, hospitals, jobs etc.

Which could be solved if we had a government that was willing to invest while the economic benefits of migration help our economy grow. On jobs specifically, all the evidence shows that migration has no negative effect on employment levels.

The more EU migrants we take the fewer non-EU migrants we can afford to take.

'Afford'? Migrants* add to our economy not take from it.

... and the EU is happy to wield that influence for the benefit of Germany but not us. Those clowns in Brussels march to Merkel's beat and no-one else's, we'd be much better off outside the EU negotiating better deals for ourselves.

Britain would have a lot more influence in Europe if we had more competent leadership (seriously, Cameron is utterly inept in Europe) and more pro-European leadership. We'd also benefit if people stopped voting to send poo-flinging UKIP MEPs to the EU parliament and started sending people who are willing to stand up for the UK's interests.


* - Refugees aside.