The Indoor Riding/ Zwift/ TrainerRoad etc. Thread

Soldato
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@Roady im trying wattsboard but also using Veloviewer now - £10 year sub and imports everything from Strava working out ftp etc - seems well worth it for the amount of data it spits out!

I use Zwift on my iPad, does the pc version do anything differently outside of bigger screen options obv!?
 
Soldato
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I don't know the specific tolerances of the Vortex, but all turbos have a power range for a given gear combo in a specified cadence range, when in ERG mode.

For example, 34/18 covers ~84-484W at approx 80rpm IIRC on the Direto. I did a Zwift ramp test back in March, where my cadence went under 70rpm and close to 50rpm when I was up at 360W+, which sent the power readings much lower and resulted in a temporary ERG disable https://www.strava.com/activities/2186515593/analysis

Does sound like a ERG bug, with the power dropping like that rather than just stopping 'dead'. I hadn't seen that with my Vortex, but had always used it over ANT+ to a Laptop.
!
I tried again in a different gear (mid ring on the front, yes old school 3x :p) and made a much more conscious effort to keep cadence up and it happened again when I hit the 280w ramp. cadence was kept steady around 85 and power started dropping and cadence reading on zwift went up but I wasn't pedalling any faster . I let the power drop completely to turn ERG off and as soon as it came back off and I was pedalling normally again the same thing happened although the cadence readout definitely seemed to stay incorrect (reading too high).

@BennyC is sending me an ANT+ dongle to try out so we'll see if that improves it otherwise I'll be contacting Tacx.

I did notice that when it happens it smells hot which is odd as I'm not feeling more resistance.

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The early power drop was me getting off for a **** that crept up on me :o but you can see the power slowly drop off just after ramping up while I kept pedalling then drops to zero when I stopped.
 
Soldato
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I look at it as an investment. Not a cheap purchase, but it will certainly improve & make my indoor/winter training more pleasurable.

As to the PC setup, I got a couple of good deals on the MM which helped.
Combined with spares lying around & b grade from Overclockers I think the whole machine cost me £265
Not bad! Yeah you're right about it being an investment, the way I justified mine was think ~100 a year spent on indoor trainers, so I've gotta keep the Flux 5 years at least before I'm allowed to change it again! In the 4 years before then I'd bought 2 trainers lol... ;)

Paid £390 for my Asus X550LB (i5 4200, 4gb RAM) without OS, put Win7 on it, free upgrade to W10 and switched the HDD to a SSD I already had. 128gb but is starting to run low on space so really need to think about upgrading it (or get the other half to put her holiday photos elsewhere!). I bought it because it had a GPU - Geforce 740M 2gb is ok, but struggles a little at 1080p on Zwift with lots of riders on screen. Runs fine at 720p, but that looks damn ugly now I'm running it on a 36" TV... :rolleyes:

@Roady im trying wattsboard but also using Veloviewer now - £10 year sub and imports everything from Strava working out ftp etc - seems well worth it for the amount of data it spits out!

I use Zwift on my iPad, does the pc version do anything differently outside of bigger screen options obv!?
Veloviewer and Strava Summit are the only cycling 'data' subscriptions I currently pay so feel your pain. Training Peaks was ace but far too expensive and has far too much in there for me...

Although I'm a bit old school so would only really get my FTP from a specific FTP Test. There's too many variables otherwise. Yes, it's nice to have it estimated, but with it being quite a key metric for training against (or racing with in my case) I'd prefer it to be as accurate as possible. I guess I'm just not doing huge long 20+ minute efforts. The Zwift race above was an exception and before I've used the Alpe as an FTP test, have even done a 20 minute FTP test up there, then a few minutes rest before extending it up the total climb (which is an hour for me). It worked well, hurt like hell, so was fantastic training! Maybe need to revisit that...

Apple/iPads have the iOS app which is slightly different. Some releases and things are a little behind and there's the limit of 2 concurrent BT devices (and only BT). So once you've a smart trainer connected and HRM, you can't have additional PWM/Cadence etc without something else to combine data streams. Also can only use BT sensors, a few years back there where hardly any BT HRM's (before Wahoo TICKR). PC there's not the same limits, BT & ANT+ from a £20 USB dongle. Think you can get ANT+ dongles for iOS devices but unsure if that gets around the data stream limit.

@BennyC is sending me an ANT+ dongle to try out so we'll see if that improves it otherwise I'll be contacting Tacx.

I did notice that when it happens it smells hot which is odd as I'm not feeling more resistance.
Really looks like a failure/faulty unit, wouldn't expect the dongle to solve it, but would be nice if it did. I'll say the unit is faulty, especially with the warm/burning smell. It's not uncommon.
 
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Associate
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Is moving from a Tacx Vortex to something direct-drive such as a Kickr worth the cost? I was riding the new roads on Watopia the other day and when it came to the rolling section, by the time the Vortex had upped the resistance I was over the crest each time, which got rather irritating. It would also mean I could use my regular winter bike with through-axles rather than the knackered old one with quick-release that fits the Vortex. It would be bad for the ego if I did change, as doesn't the Vortex over-estimate power?
 
Soldato
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Tried another ramp test last night. This time through TrainerRoad over ANT+ to my laptop. Same dice. Hit 295w target and the power just started dropping. Kept my actual cadence the same as best I could without relying on the numbers on screen so I don't think the initial surge of cadence it shows at the last power ramp was accurate.

Will be emailing Tacx and pulling the card that this is ruining the prep for my first triathlon (3 weeks time) :p

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Associate
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I tried again in a different gear (mid ring on the front, yes old school 3x :p) and made a much more conscious effort to keep cadence up and it happened again when I hit the 280w ramp

I am also using a triple on my Vortex and if you are getting that far in the ramp you need to be in the large ring, I also experienced a similar issue when on the mid ring. I only ever use the large ring now for erg mode.

Although its strange your Vortex smelt the only time I had an issue with smell was when I first got the unit and the resistance was too much on the rear tyre and it started to smell of burnt rubber. :o
 
Soldato
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Is moving from a Tacx Vortex to something direct-drive such as a Kickr worth the cost? I was riding the new roads on Watopia the other day and when it came to the rolling section, by the time the Vortex had upped the resistance I was over the crest each time, which got rather irritating. It would also mean I could use my regular winter bike with through-axles rather than the knackered old one with quick-release that fits the Vortex. It would be bad for the ego if I did change, as doesn't the Vortex over-estimate power?
Yes it's worth changing to Direct Drive (Vortex owner and now on a Flux), but that 'delay' is still there, just not to the same degree. I could overpower the Vortex's power curve on rollers like that to surge hard in races. Nobody could keep with me on Direct Drives. Now I'm a DD rider the power curve is much steeper so can't overpower... Can still surge but it's hard and relies on my legs to beat others, not my trainer lol

My Vortex was over by around 5-10% at steady state, around 30% or more in surges with top end kicks being about 30-40% less. Flux is far more accurate but I would say it under-reads surges and kicks. I see 1000W+ on the road when kicking, but comparable is only 800W on the Flux.

Riding indoor during the summer with no fans however has its negatives....
Madman! You need fans! I need one even in the winter lol
 
Soldato
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Yes it's worth changing to Direct Drive (Vortex owner and now on a Flux), but that 'delay' is still there, just not to the same degree. I could overpower the Vortex's power curve on rollers like that to surge hard in races. Nobody could keep with me on Direct Drives. Now I'm a DD rider the power curve is much steeper so can't overpower... Can still surge but it's hard and relies on my legs to beat others, not my trainer lol

My Vortex was over by around 5-10% at steady state, around 30% or more in surges with top end kicks being about 30-40% less. Flux is far more accurate but I would say it under-reads surges and kicks. I see 1000W+ on the road when kicking, but comparable is only 800W on the Flux.

I've overcome my Flux's figures being a fraction low (I have no evidence to back this up, it's just a feeling) by simply using my P1S pedals to provide the power figures whether I'm out on the road or on the trainer, so the consistency is there outdoor or indoors. It's hard to see progression (or the opposite) when constantly flicking from one PWM to another. I have found though that I do produce a little more power out on the road, but that's probably almost certainly down to airflow - my garage fans are ok but I'm physically a lot cooler out in the open air.
 
Soldato
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If you train frequently enough near and beyond your known outdoor ftp, you will get your indoor output to match or even exceed your outdoor efforts (because on the turbo you don't need to slow for traffic, junctions, lights etc.) using the same power meter in both scenarios.

When I do my turbo sessions, I'm in my flat rather than a cool garage, which has often been at least 20C before I even start in recent weeks. Each time I stop training hard for approx three times a week over approx 45min sessions, it takes close to three weeks for adaption so I can do more power for the same heart rate. It doesn't take long to lose the adaptions, roughly two weeks of infrequent turbo sessions and it's pretty much back to square one.
 
Soldato
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It doesn't take long to lose the adaptions, roughly two weeks of infrequent turbo sessions and it's pretty much back to square one.

Marginal gains! Or more accurately the 'peak'/plateau you can reach where your time commitments just to maintain current fitness are so vast you struggle to really gain anything. Throw in a couple of missed sessions, then some illness and you know as well as I do the pain it takes to 'chase' back to those fitness levels. It's such a hard balance! :o

In my opinion the 'difference' in technique and style between indoor - outdoor, along with the different environments, I say it's very hard to totally 'balance' the two even with the same power meter if you're after using exact power figures for some training reason. Which is why you probably shouldn't, even if it's using exactly the same power meter... ;)

I do find power 'easier' to sustain on the turbo, but then I find 'peak' or interval type stuff much easier on the road. That's probably more down to resistance and environment than anything else. So I've always considered that in theory I have an 'indoor' FTP and an 'outdoor' FTP. That again could be me as I don't really do any structured type riding out on the road (not that I do much more on the turbo!) so only have need for FTP tests on the turbo.

For my riging 'Social' outdoor rides are usually O/U efforts or Z2/3 rides with efforts on climbs/signs/sprints. Most of my Zwift riding is now more group 'endurance' distance type rides, rather than all the racing I did before. A main reason for that is to get the volume in, as my outdoor riding has decreased so much the last couple of years, along with having less sessions/opportunities to ride. My commuting, which is generally short, sustained power type riding, with a few 'interval' type efforts. I don't tend to ride 'easy' unless I'm fatigued or doing a group ride on Zwift... :o

Speaking of that, jumped into the 3R 100km ride on sunday. My start was plagued by ANT+ issues and I think it was actually due to W10 updating dotnet which caused it?! Reloading Zwift solved it and used late join to jump back in and things where stable afterwards. Did a couple of keeping chases but otherwise a really tidy & tight group. We mixed things up by going for the sprint most laps, several of us trying our techniques. I got 2 PR's but was still a couple of seconds off the jersey. Good fun and I think these efforts really helped the group - the strong riders sat in rather than dragging out/splitting the group. Had to cut the ride short as needed to be done by 10. Still really like this ride as it seems to really help my legs without overly fatiguing. Even with sprints and keeping efforts! :D
 
Soldato
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Basically I want to input a Strava ride into Swift.
I'd want the smart trainer to adapt to the profile of the outdoor ride and for the avatar in Swift to adapt to the ride elevation. I wouldn't want to be climbing to outdoor route elevation but the swift avatar being on a flat profile.

I want to re-ride this route at home.
https://www.strava.com/activities/2213042669

Ok, I thought this was easier than it actually is. Basically Zwift will only work with .ZWO files so you've gotta do some converting around.

There's a tool here to create a workout from a GPX, but you have to put much more info in to create the workout rather than it being a 'just ride' type scenario - rider weight, FTP and intensity etc.

https://whatsonzwift.com/gpx-to-zwift-workout/

There's a .fit to .gpx converter here - http://garmin.stevegordon.co.uk/

Accordingly you can do it from https://www.bestbikesplit.com/ much easier and it'll put your files in the right places with more control. Other Training Planning kinda programs will output Zwift .ZWO files for workouts, I've previously done it from Xert and they worked well. Here's how to do it from TrainingPeaks.

You're basically doing the same, generating a 'workout' from data, to then import into Zwift. But because it's a workout it'll have power targets and such in there, rather than just being an 'open world' type ride where you can ride it how you want. Obviously if you wanted to ride it the same power levels as your Strava ride (as targets) then that's great... Much more tweaking and multiple outputs required to ride it at different intensities/powers.

I'm unsure if a GPX imported into a Workout can just have 'Elevation' and nothing else. The fact that it's a 'workout' I think not... You can obviously use various tools to remove data fields from .fit files, so I wonder if you removed the Power/Speed from a .fit, converted to .gpx and then .zwo ... I'm sure Zwift would complain... Maybe?!
 
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Soldato
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Anyone built a movable stand for their trainer and bike? I don't have a area to leave it permanently so I need the whole setup to be movable.

I normally carry my Direto attached to my bike to my turbo room, which of late has been the bedroom, rather than the kitchen. Takes ~1min to move and set up. After the session, it goes back into the mancave, with the support legs loose but at ~45 degrees for stability. Sadly, the mancave's wooden floor transmits too much noise to our "lovely" neighbours below, as I found out within a week of buying the turbo!
 
Soldato
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Anyone built a movable stand for their trainer and bike? I don't have a area to leave it permanently so I need the whole setup to be movable.
Move the whole lot together rather than taking apart and moving? I assume by that you're using a DD and don't want to fiddle refitting a wheel to keep the drivechain off the floor?

It'll be heavy, no 2 ways around that, so are you thinking just to 'roll' it out from a corner or such, train and then roll it away? Maybe a rocker plate type design so it holds bike & trainer, then fit some wheels on the bottom. But you'd want a way to lock them if a true rocker plate as otherwise you'd be all over the shop! :D

Maybe an old pallet truck?! Haha love that idea actually.
 
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Move the whole lot together rather than taking apart and moving? I assume by that you're using a DD and don't want to fiddle refitting a wheel to keep the drivechain off the floor?

It'll be heavy, no 2 ways around that, so are you thinking just to 'roll' it out from a corner or such, train and then roll it away? Maybe a rocker plate type design so it holds bike & trainer, then fit some wheels on the bottom. But you'd want a way to lock them if a true rocker plate as otherwise you'd be all over the shop! :D

Maybe an old pallet truck?! Haha love that idea actually.

Yep, was exactly my thought. Mount the whole thing on some 20mm wood with plenty of wheels on it; movable trainer. You can get lockable wheels from B&Q for about £3-4 each.
As it turns out, i'll only be moving it about 1m so it's not worth it.
 
Soldato
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The Yorkshire course is punchy! They’re right when they say there’s almost no flat parts with a few 15%+ kickers. Well done Zwift for creating these courses so we can try it out. It does feel weird though to ride on the left in some very normal looking scenery rather than Watopian
 
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