The Indoor Riding/ Zwift/ TrainerRoad etc. Thread

[Roady]

10 minute warmup
4:23 @ 410-440w (3.2k test to compete with a mate who's been trying to beat 5 minutes)
10 minute spin
1 minute @ 440w
1 minute @ 100w ish x 10
Spin down.

Genuine training question related to above and not really to indoor training...

What's the benefit of those 1 minute @440W sessions after doing a prolonged 4+ minute session earlier at the same power. It doesn't really test or condition anything? Maybe if the 1 minutes at 100W where higher it'd be a series of over/unders to work on active recovery, or if they where higher intervals they'd be more sprint and recovery efforts. But at that level even for a rider like you Jonny they're no more than 130% of your FTP? Basically, as you where able to hold the same power for nearly 5 minutes, it's in your threshold, not VO2max. So what's the need for 1 minute on/off threshold x10 when you've already done nearly 5 minutes there already?

Just purchased an Elite Direto to replace my awful Tacx Flow.

What did you find so awful about the Flow? Would be good to hear if your experience moving from Flow to Direto is similar as mine Vortex to Flux. I didn't find my Vortex to be 'awful', but it certainly doesn't compare to Direct Drive.

It also gives me an excuse to build another PC

See my post above about PC specs, I'm sure I've mentioned earlier in this thread too so worth a hunt if you want to research slightly. GPU and SSD are key to performance, Zwift is not really RAM or CPU hungry.

Hi All, apologies if this is a question that has been asked many times. I'm after advice on what trainer to get? I haven't previously had a trainer before but with winter months coming and having a young family I'm not going to be able to get out much and I don't want to sign up to a gym.

Is there a cheap smart trainer which I can plug my laptop into for data? I'm really sorry if this is vague, I'm unsure of where to start.

A large part of it is what bike you have, the wheel 'fittings' as that will determine your trainers available. Then it's all down to budget. Of course what equipment you have available also comes into it, TV's and existing PC/Laptop/Tablet/AppleTV etc etc.

My basic list of advice on trainers is above. You can flesh that out and read other variations on the DCR Trainer Guide.

My basics with various pricing splits - <£400 wheel-on, Flow/Vortex/Snap/Satori. £450-£800 Direct Drive, Flux/Directo/Core, £800+ really determined by budget but Neo or KICKR/Climb.

I would expect people plumbing £600+ on a setup to already have experience of trainers, to have the bike and all the extras (TV/Laptop/ANT+ adaptors) already and know the platform they're riding. The low end is quite high largely due to people not having these extras and needing at least some of it. You couldn't buy a complete budget setup new, including AppleTV, adaptors, bike and trainer for much below £500/600.

 

[UTmaniac]

Genuine training question related to above and not really to indoor training...

What's the benefit of those 1 minute @440W sessions after doing a prolonged 4+ minute session earlier at the same power. It doesn't really test or condition anything? Maybe if the 1 minutes at 100W where higher it'd be a series of over/unders to work on active recovery, or if they where higher intervals they'd be more sprint and recovery efforts. But at that level even for a rider like you Jonny they're no more than 130% of your FTP? Basically, as you where able to hold the same power for nearly 5 minutes, it's in your threshold, not VO2max. So what's the need for 1 minute on/off threshold x10 when you've already done nearly 5 minutes there already?

If ~130% FTP, I'd imagine that workout would be great for improving LTHR.

I did my first bit of decent training the other night, ~120% FTP (~307W) for 10.5mins, 3.5mins @180Wish, then another 5.5mins of 120% before a recovery and cool down... Bit of a shock for the legs, pleasantly surprised by the numbers considering my lack of power training since June, but could barely walk for the rest of the evening... Thankfully ok after a night's sleep!

 

[Rusko187]

A large part of it is what bike you have, the wheel 'fittings' as that will determine your trainers available. Then it's all down to budget. Of course what equipment you have available also comes into it, TV's and existing PC/Laptop/Tablet/AppleTV etc etc.

My basic list of advice on trainers is above. You can flesh that out and read other variations on the DCR Trainer Guide.

My basics with various pricing splits - <£400 wheel-on, Flow/Vortex/Snap/Satori. £450-£800 Direct Drive, Flux/Directo/Core, £800+ really determined by budget but Neo or KICKR/Climb.

I would expect people plumbing £600+ on a setup to already have experience of trainers, to have the bike and all the extras (TV/Laptop/ANT+ adaptors) already and know the platform they're riding. The low end is quite high largely due to people not having these extras and needing at least some of it. You couldn't buy a complete budget setup new, including AppleTV, adaptors, bike and trainer for much below £500/600.

Outside of the trainer and tyre, I think I'm largely set up. I have a Cube Attain 2018 Roadbike and I've got an excellent gaming laptop with TV that I can plug into directly all set up, I have scoped a TacX Blue Matic Folding Trainer on Ebay... I'm hoping this will be suitable for what I need, seems to suggest it's 1 size fits all and if I'm reading right connects via Bluetooth.

 

[Robzere31]

See my post above about PC specs, I'm sure I've mentioned earlier in this thread too so worth a hunt if you want to research slightly. GPU and SSD are key to performance, Zwift is not really RAM or CPU hungry.

Picked up bits & pieces on the MM, plus some bits I've got in the spares bucket.

GPU is a 1050ti, CPU i3 7100, 8GB DDR4 & an 120GB SSD.

 

[dod]

Let me know what you think of the elite directo.
I'm going to be in the market for a new trainer, i currently still use a Tacx Setori.....

In other news I did my first Zwift ride last night, I can certainly see the appeal. So much so I've decided to build a cheap 2nd PC for the garage to run Zwift.
Works fine on note 9 & chromecast, but at quite a low resolution, plus there are features missing.
It also gives me an excuse to build another PC

I'm using a direto as well. It's good, pretty responsive to changes, reasonably quiet. I've just got mine linked up to an Ipad on the bars although I can link that up to the TV through apple TV if I want, don't usually bother though.
I don't care for the direto training software/app, thought tacx was better. Only thing I really miss is I'd bought some of the tacx video rides, they don't work with the direto, obviously enough I suppose, although I've still got my bushido if I really can be bothered

 

[Nursie]

What did you find so awful about the Flow? Would be good to hear if your experience moving from Flow to Direto is similar as mine Vortex to Flux. I didn't find my Vortex to be 'awful', but it certainly doesn't compare to Direct Drive.

Mainly because I found it virtually impossible to calibrate for the last 18 months or so, tried adjusting the tyre clamp, tyre pressure, different tyres etc. Also found it very inaccurate about 20-25% below my power meter, which made it annoying for hopping on without swapping the PM over.

Only had a quick go on the Direto tonight but feels much better, not like riding on the road but certainly way better than the flow.

Anyone tried Kinomap or Rouvy? Got some voucher codes for a free trial with the Direto

 

[Jonny ///M]

Genuine training question related to above and not really to indoor training...

What's the benefit of those 1 minute @440W sessions after doing a prolonged 4+ minute session earlier at the same power. It doesn't really test or condition anything? Maybe if the 1 minutes at 100W where higher it'd be a series of over/unders to work on active recovery, or if they where higher intervals they'd be more sprint and recovery efforts. But at that level even for a rider like you Jonny they're no more than 130% of your FTP? Basically, as you where able to hold the same power for nearly 5 minutes, it's in your threshold, not VO2max. So what's the need for 1 minute on/off threshold x10 when you've already done nearly 5 minutes there already?

The first part was really just to see what I could do the 2 miles in to compare with a mate who goes to the gym but isn't a bike guy.

I just do the minute on and off for quickness as I don't have a coach or follow a specific training plan. I don't have a great attention span and it felt pretty blood hard to do!

Just suits what I do as the rides I do, like the bundy on Tuesday I was sat on the guy Martin Lonie as he went across to a group of 3. I was basically flat out on his wheel to get up to the group then could recover on the back.....then someone else attacks and it's flat out to stay with it again.

I probably should train to more longer higher power efforts to simulate long drags but I don't

 

[UTmaniac]

Basically, as you where able to hold the same power for nearly 5 minutes, it's in your threshold, not VO2max.

Haydn, just wanted to pick up on this bit specifically, which I forgot to mention yesterday...

Just because you can hold a given power average for nearly 5mins, that does not mean it is your threshold power. I did a new 5min MAP best of 357W back in April https://www.strava.com/activities/2292012233/analysis/965/1264 , but the best 20min MAP from 2nd March was 314W https://www.strava.com/activities/2186515593/analysis/783/1984 ...Just before 2019 unravelled with ~2 months of lurgy, lost motivation and then upsetting my left knee tendons (ironically after buying my first set of 3-bolt cleat pedals and carbon soled shoes, bought to try and improve my power transfer).

"V02 max" training intervals are typically up to ~8mins and up to ~120% FTP. However, that VO2max length and intensity is not set in stone. I did the "Zwift Academy 2019 #7 VO2max Development" session last night based on my current estimated FTP of 271W, which set me intervals from 2-5mins at 295W, but the 5min final interval ramped up to ~324W https://www.strava.com/activities/2622368344/analysis

My best cat4 climb last summer by power output was ~323W up Old Winchester Hill in 9mins12secs, but my estimated FTP based on 95% of my best 20min effort was 272W at the time https://www.strava.com/activities/1613001845/analysis/3065/3617

My training session on the "Tick Tock" route on Tuesday really was an oddball in terms of power numbers, somehow throwing out ~306W for ~10mins30secs https://www.strava.com/activities/2616095969/analysis/116/748 and then 306W for ~5mins30secs https://www.strava.com/activities/2616095969/analysis/958/1288 within a 20min time period... In hindsight I wish I had tried to do a sustained 20min block, because even with the recovery period of ~3mins30secs at ~167W, I was literally only a ~5W below the 20min effort from 8th August that I'm using for my current FTP estimate. Besides the very end of that 8th August session, I've nothing in my rides logs for months suggesting I could hold more than 300W for over 5mins, in fact I've been wary of doing much over ~250W for a few seconds since I upset my left knee in early July.

Good job on improving your FTP while racing last night, btw.

 

[Shimmyhill]

With all this FTP talk... what’s the best app to work it out with the data from Strava etc? Zwift seems to make it really hard to find and even then the in app is editable so not sure if figure is right - training peaks was great in the free demo but way too expensive for my use!

 

[UTmaniac]

With all this FTP talk... what’s the best app to work it out with the data from Strava etc? Zwift seems to make it really hard to find and even then the in app is editable so not sure if figure is right - training peaks was great in the free demo but way too expensive for my use!

https://power-meter.cc/home is free, give it permission to link to your Strava account and it will churn out some all-time and last 6 week's power stats including FTP. Fitness/fatigue/form based on TSS.

https://cricklesorg.wordpress.com/ is also free, not as much detail on power but gives FTP from last 6 weeks. Also covers heart data, gives you rolling LTHR and zones, plus a fitness/fatigue/form that includes estimates when you don't have HRM/PM data.

 

[Skillmister]

Having trouble with ERG mode on my Vortex when trying to do intervals above 200w.

Hills etc in free ride, routes or races are fine as are FTP tests etc but tried a ramp test yesterday and at around the 220w interval the turbo seemed to stop resisting and no matter how hard I pedalled the power just dropped until eventually it auto disabled ERG and the power crept back up then dropped and disabled again.

Have read online that it could be due to using Bluetooth rather than ANT+ as I'm only running Zwift on my phone currently but anyone got any input as to whether this is correct?

 

[UTmaniac]

Having trouble with ERG mode on my Vortex when trying to do intervals above 200w.

Hills etc in free ride, routes or races are fine as are FTP tests etc but tried a ramp test yesterday and at around the 220w interval the turbo seemed to stop resisting and no matter how hard I pedalled the power just dropped until eventually it auto disabled ERG and the power crept back up then dropped and disabled again.

Have read online that it could be due to using Bluetooth rather than ANT+ as I'm only running Zwift on my phone currently but anyone got any input as to whether this is correct?

I don't know the specific tolerances of the Vortex, but all turbos have a power range for a given gear combo in a specified cadence range, when in ERG mode.

For example, 34/18 covers ~84-484W at approx 80rpm IIRC on the Direto. I did a Zwift ramp test back in March, where my cadence went under 70rpm and close to 50rpm when I was up at 360W+, which sent the power readings much lower and resulted in a temporary ERG disable https://www.strava.com/activities/2186515593/analysis

 

[Shimmyhill]

https://power-meter.cc/home is free, give it permission to link to your Strava account and it will churn out some all-time and last 6 week's power stats including FTP. Fitness/fatigue/form based on TSS.

https://cricklesorg.wordpress.com/ is also free, not as much detail on power but gives FTP from last 6 weeks. Also covers heart data, gives you rolling LTHR and zones, plus a fitness/fatigue/form that includes estimates when you don't have HRM/PM data.

Cheers, seems my last 6 weeks have been a bit lacklustre for FTP!

 

[Robzere31]

Decided on the Elite Direto 2 for a trainer. Should be here tomorrow. With cashback got it for £528

Set the newly built spare PC up this morning in the garage, runs great. Used the last of my free 25km riding around Central Park, can't wait to really get into some proper rides on there though.

 

[AndyCr15]

Was trying to late join a Zwift group ride just now, click JOIN and a little Going tab appeared on it... then nothing. Click RIDE and it takes me into a ride of on my own... End ride and it quits the app?! Open it again, same thing... how do I actually join?

Decided on the Elite Direto 2 for a trainer. Should be here tomorrow. With cashback got it for £528

It's £550 on Halfords. You could join the British Cycling Federation for around £25 and then get £55 off it (Plus Quidco...)

 

[Robzere31]

It's £550 on Halfords. You could join the British Cycling Federation for around £25 and then get £55 off it (Plus Quidco...)

Oh well nevermind. Paid for now. I was originally looking at the kickr core for £699 so either way I've saved

 

[Shimmyhill]

Oh well nevermind. Paid for now. I was originally looking at the kickr core for £699 so either way I've saved

Did you try them before buying? I’ve got a Tacx Vortex and winter upgrade will be a wheel off one, Ive tried the Wahoo Kickr and loved it so interested to hear how the others compare in the £700 window!

 

[Robzere31]

Not tried it, but going on recommendations from users here & a few other sites.
Whatever I got will be a massive upgrade from my Tacx Setori what I purchased about 10 years ago.

 

[Roady]

Outside of the trainer and tyre, I think I'm largely set up. I have a Cube Attain 2018 Roadbike and I've got an excellent gaming laptop with TV that I can plug into directly all set up, I have scoped a TacX Blue Matic Folding Trainer on Ebay... I'm hoping this will be suitable for what I need, seems to suggest it's 1 size fits all and if I'm reading right connects via Bluetooth.

Good job. Although I would say you'll probably need an additional USB ANT+/BT dongle. The inbuilt Bluetooth in most Laptops is not man enough/not high enough firmware/not compatible with BTLE. If going for a 'non-smart' you'll usually also require a Speed & cadence sensor for apps like Zwift/TR to 'calculate' your power from. But that's quite 'old' tech now and not very accurate. Ok for basic training/riding, not really much else (like structured, repeatable, progressive training or racing).

Picked up bits & pieces on the MM, plus some bits I've got in the spares bucket.

GPU is a 1050ti, CPU i3 7100, 8GB DDR4 & an 120GB SSD.

Good spec, will run things fine @ 1080p full details!

Have a few newer ('basic') workstations here with the i3 7100 and it's a great little workhorse. Makes me wonder if I don't have all the bits to sort my old Q6600 then to just grab one/similar...

Mainly because I found it virtually impossible to calibrate for the last 18 months or so, tried adjusting the tyre clamp, tyre pressure, different tyres etc. Also found it very inaccurate about 20-25% below my power meter, which made it annoying for hopping on without swapping the PM over.

Only had a quick go on the Direto tonight but feels much better, not like riding on the road but certainly way better than the flow.

Anyone tried Kinomap or Rouvy? Got some voucher codes for a free trial with the Direto

Ahhh fair enough. All valid good reasons to move to direct drive! I've not tried either but have meant to try Rouvy... Have always meant to try FullGaz and WorldGrandTours too... But when paying for a Zwift sub, even through the summer I really don't ride it enough to feel like I get my moneys worth or have the time to try other apps.

With all this FTP talk... what’s the best app to work it out with the data from Strava etc? Zwift seems to make it really hard to find and even then the in app is editable so not sure if figure is right - training peaks was great in the free demo but way too expensive for my use!

https://www.wattsboard.com/dashboard is another good free one.

https://power-meter.cc/home is free, give it permission to link to your Strava account and it will churn out some all-time and last 6 week's power stats including FTP. Fitness/fatigue/form based on TSS.

Good shout, hadn't seen/used that one before. Thanks!

Having trouble with ERG mode on my Vortex when trying to do intervals above 200w.

Hills etc in free ride, routes or races are fine as are FTP tests etc but tried a ramp test yesterday and at around the 220w interval the turbo seemed to stop resisting and no matter how hard I pedalled the power just dropped until eventually it auto disabled ERG and the power crept back up then dropped and disabled again.

Have read online that it could be due to using Bluetooth rather than ANT+ as I'm only running Zwift on my phone currently but anyone got any input as to whether this is correct?

Does sound like a ERG bug, with the power dropping like that rather than just stopping 'dead'. I hadn't seen that with my Vortex, but had always used it over ANT+ to a Laptop.

Decided on the Elite Direto 2 for a trainer. Should be here tomorrow. With cashback got it for £528

Set the newly built spare PC up this morning in the garage, runs great. Used the last of my free 25km riding around Central Park, can't wait to really get into some proper rides on there though.

A great price/purchase regardless and you'll get many years of pleasure from it!

I managed to get my Flux for £571 (down from £630) back in January 2018. The Direto was over £100 more at the time. I've not seen the Flux (v1, v2 or S) cheaper than what I paid for it since. Current Sterling : Euro pricing will only see pricing get worse too!

 

[Robzere31]

A great price/purchase regardless and you'll get many years of pleasure from it!

I managed to get my Flux for £571 (down from £630) back in January 2018. The Direto was over £100 more at the time. I've not seen the Flux (v1, v2 or S) cheaper than what I paid for it since. Current Sterling : Euro pricing will only see pricing get worse too!

I look at it as an investment. Not a cheap purchase, but it will certainly improve & make my indoor/winter training more pleasurable.

As to the PC setup, I got a couple of good deals on the MM which helped.
Combined with spares lying around & b grade from Overclockers I think the whole machine cost me £265

One thing I found funny is I purchased the case for £16.99 (B grade) surprisingly decent case albeit rather thin & none of the screw holes line up!
But the spare 120mm fan I've installed was actually more expensive than the case at £17.99

I can already see me getting a bigger screen in the future, the 22" 1080p monitor already looks small.