The Indoor Riding/ Zwift/ TrainerRoad etc. Thread

[TallPaul_S]

Well plans changed and I decided to keep the MTB setup for outdoor work. I bought a cheap used roadbike (£180) for the Zwift setup.

Gotta say, although I've never owned a road bike, I have used them before, even competed in a couple very low level events and I've got plenty of experience on Wattbikes and such. However, Zwift is a different beast...
Done a couple freeride sessions, and decided I needed to start a training plan. At one point I somehow found myself in the middle of a huge pack and was keeping pace, but I just couldnt sustain it, after about 10min I started to drop off and as soon as I got near the rear of the pack it was game over, no chance I was making it back up...
I'm staying away from any organised events and such for the mean time until I'm up to speed.
I thought I was "bike fit"... OOOOHHHH how mistaken was I!!!!! Cranking away up and down on a MTB with 418 % gear range is very much different kettle of fish! Needless to say I got a lot of work to do, but the important thing is I'm actually enjoying the challenge.

As expected, despite the outwardly decent looking condition, a bike of this age and budget, there are some upgrades required. I'm going to replace cassette/chain/chainrings. Wear is noticable, although it does run fine-ish for now. I'm thinking saddle also needs addressing, finding that anything beyond the 1hr mark to be absolute agony on the gooch, I'll play with high and angles but I think its headed for the bin!

Nice one! That's exactly what I've done, cheap road bike on the trainer and my expensive mountain bikes for proper riding.

You'll find that an hour on zwift is MUCH harder than an hour outside because there's very few opportunities to coast. And a decent saddle is a must - make sure you're getting out the saddle every so often otherwise you're sat in the same place all the time.

There's some very decent training plans on zwift, I'd reccomend doing the Zwift 101 which teaches you the basics. Then once you know your FTP, I'd look at joining a pace partner ride - pick one a good bit below your FTP w/kg and you'll find yourself riding with 50 or more other riders - just like in real life, the draft is a big thing in zwift. If you're following a riding within a few metres you'll be getting a draft and with the pace partners you'll be getting a huge draft of you sit in the 'blob'.

Zwift is bloody fantastic for fitness, to give you an idea I started zwift properly in December last year, my FTP was 210w at 86kg (2.44w/kg) and I'm now at 273w at 73.7kg, 3.7w/kg. If you get into the structured training you can make some great gains fairly quickly. I'm 41 and started MTB about 4 years ago, always struggled with fitness over winter but mainly thanks to Zwift I'm in the best shape of my life.

 

[TallPaul_S]

You can get to 4w threshold and finish in the front group, but keep working the whole range of power or you’ll never get a place!

Yeah I'm weak on big power (5s - 60s) but my TrainerRoad plan should see to that once I get into the speciality phases later on.

 

[steve45]

You'll find that an hour on zwift is MUCH harder than an hour outside because there's very few opportunities to coast. And a decent saddle is a must - make sure you're getting out the saddle every so often otherwise you're sat in the same place all the time.

There's some very decent training plans on zwift, I'd reccomend doing the Zwift 101 which teaches you the basics. Then once you know your FTP, I'd look at joining a pace partner ride - pick one a good bit below your FTP w/kg and you'll find yourself riding with 50 or more other riders - just like in real life, the draft is a big thing in zwift. If you're following a riding within a few metres you'll be getting a draft and with the pace partners you'll be getting a huge draft of you sit in the 'blob'.

Zwift is bloody fantastic for fitness, to give you an idea I started zwift properly in December last year, my FTP was 210w at 86kg (2.44w/kg) and I'm now at 273w at 73.7kg, 3.7w/kg. If you get into the structured training you can make some great gains fairly quickly. I'm 41 and started MTB about 4 years ago, always struggled with fitness over winter but mainly thanks to Zwift I'm in the best shape of my life.

Yeah no kidding, I'm used to 2-3+hrs riding on the MTB no problem. An hour on Zwift leaves me with wobbly legs feeling completely spent!
I've started a Zwift program called "back to fitness",although I do find so far it has been decent phys, I think the 12 week forecast for the program is a bit of a stretch, I'm already a few sessions in and the 12 weeks feels like it'll turn into a few weeks as I plan on running 4 days on the rig, 2 upper body and 1 rest day. I'll look into that Zwift 101 though and see how I get on with it.
I originally started off with the FTP that Wattbike calculated at about 268w about 2 weeks ago, although I have had to turn it down to 225w as a starting point just to make the most out of the sessions, however I have found myself adjusting up on the sprints quite a bit although the longer efforts feel about right.
I feel my strength is good but my endurance isnt quite up to scratch.

 

[TallPaul_S]

Tbh if you're already into a plan don't worry about zwift 101 - it's there for complete beginners to explain the basics of structured training.

Personally I love having training sessions set in the calendar, 6 weeks flies by - 12 weeks is longer but it's not too bad. I did 'dirt destroyer' which is 6 weeks and then straight into 'build me up' which is a really tough 12 week plan.

I've moved over to TrainerRoad for my structured training now purely because zwift is lacking a bit in that area, TR is much more focused on training. I'm in week 6 of a plan that lasts until February! Only 3 days a week but that allow for outside rides, strength sessions and the odd zwift race without overtraining.

Even a bad structured training plan is better than no plan, and if you stick to it you'll see some nice big newbie gains at the start!

 

[Roady]

Commentators curse tonight, thanks for the ride on Roady. Just as I was about to get dropped!

Hahaha, ooops! Bit late, but sorry!

As expected, despite the outwardly decent looking condition, a bike of this age and budget, there are some upgrades required. I'm going to replace cassette/chain/chainrings. Wear is noticable, although it does run fine-ish for now. I'm thinking saddle also needs addressing, finding that anything beyond the 1hr mark to be absolute agony on the gooch, I'll play with high and angles but I think its headed for the bin!

With all those changes might be almost worth changing the bike, keep looking for deals on S/H and you might get something newer groupset wise. Just remember frame wise it doesn't really matter the weight.

That looks like 8-9 speed so maybe some deals on Sora/Claris stuff. At least the 8 speed HG cassettes new are still £16/17, chains about £10, chainrings could be the hard thing to find.

But if you consider upgrading groupset at the same time... Dig out the wallet, 11 speed cassettes are only now coming down to £50, chains £20, chainrings £150, shifters £250. So even if you can get things, it is still a lot of money to upgrade an old bike!

I've started doing the new Zracing series, first race was this evening and it was only my 2nd ever Zwift race!

Nice result and numbers, congratulations! Keep it up!

Just about to start ZRL again at around 3.4w/kg - but not had the race results to push me up from C. So riding in B and ended up leading a 3R team in B2 as a cat C. Not ideal, had hoped to be B by then, but does give me headroom for the upgrade. Last time it happened (in the spring) was at the end of ZRL leading a C team.

Finished the DiRT series last week with a strong iTT following on from a short (but brutal) race. Somehow coming in 11th in the iTT (but after points coming in 16th - as didn't target the segments). Maybe just courses like Richmond and Yorkshire suit me! Pleased with that in low-B riding as a C!

Zwift is bloody fantastic for fitness, to give you an idea I started zwift properly in December last year, my FTP was 210w at 86kg (2.44w/kg) and I'm now at 273w at 73.7kg, 3.7w/kg. If you get into the structured training you can make some great gains fairly quickly. I'm 41 and started MTB about 4 years ago, always struggled with fitness over winter but mainly thanks to Zwift I'm in the best shape of my life.

Yup seconded. Now I'm riding Zwift so regularly my FTP has crept slowly up from ~240W to ~260W without any real training or plan this year. Weight from around 82kg down to 79kg. I'm really happy at this 'level' for the effort I put in - a low amount and very 'low maintenance' as I recover quickly and don't really have to taper anything to just fit any bigger rides in. I've surfed the line between Cat C and B, generally I'm a B rider and compete as low-B, just lack the results to put myself 'officially' in B.

Previously (5-6 years ago) following a far stricter diet and 'training' I've got myself to 270W at around 77-78kg a couple of times, the only time I trimmed to below 75kg (74kg) I really lost power. A gradual decline without the strength training the current Zwift racing/TTT'ing gave me as it was from lots of outside miles. I lacked the top end punch, although flew up longer hills, I hadn't got my surge for the shorter stuff. But I was also ill quite constantly, felt weak at times and struggled to recover from big efforts/rides always digging myself in a hole (probably why I seemed to be ill all the time). Lots of people commented I didn't look healthy, so really think below 75kg is a little too low for me. For a while I called 75-76kg my 'summer' weight and 80kg my 'winter' weight. Truth is now I'm Zwifting more I've barely been below 77-78kg the last few summer seasons. So summer/winter I tend to float between 77-82kg. I keep telling myself that muscle is far heavier!

But I'm also 42 now with lots of other commitments. So to get the time for more riding hours to trim more weight is unlikely. The last couple of years I've really just been riding for fun and fun competition on Zwift. My son is nearly 5 so the first 2-3 years rode as maintenance and really fighting to 'keep what I had' fitness wise, with the couple since keeping that unstructured approach with some small gains. I've reached a point now where I can 'do what I want' riding wise and really not dig myself into any holes recovering from longer indoor/outdoor rides, while also slowly improving power and getting more competitive on Zwift. All this while not following any real plan and not really worrying about what I'm eating and drinking! A perfect 'easy' thing to continue. Especially as nearly all my riding indoor & outdoor is enjoyable - no pressure, no goals, no stress!

 

[TallPaul_S]

2nd race of the Get Rolling series last night, oh boy that's a tough one! Nice mellow start as everyone was saving themselves for the titans grove rolling bit and then the KOM, 4 minutes at 305w avg up the KOM, when my FTP is 273w, and I was already fairly gassed, absolutely killed me. Lost the lead pack within sight of the summit but I was in survival mode by then, ended up 58th of 77. Both my get rolling races I'm hovering around the top of the last third, trying to get into the middle third.

Over FTP efforts for more than 30 seconds and less than 5 mins are my nemesis, so I'm happy with the results. Hopefully I'll improve this area with my training.

 

[Junglist]

I'm keen to try races but I know I'll get my butt handed to me. I have a current w/kg of a measly 2.7 but that puts me just above Cat D and firmly at the bottom of Cat C. Can I enter races for Cat D or do I just have to accept I need to get better to have fun in Cat C?

 

[TallPaul_S]

I'm keen to try races but I know I'll get my butt handed to me. I have a current w/kg of a measly 2.7 but that puts me just above Cat D and firmly at the bottom of Cat C. Can I enter races for Cat D or do I just have to accept I need to get better to have fun in Cat C?

You might still be in cat D as it's based on a number of your actual efforts, simplest way to check if you're riding frequently is look at an event with category enforcement.

It'll look something like this, if D is showing as restricted as C is for me then you'll only be able to enter in C.



You can also check on intervals.icu to see your actual CP (critical power) that's used.

Don't worry too much though, you need to be an experienced racer, know the courses and the strategies and have power at the top of your cat to get a place in the top 25% really. I'm 3.7w/kg and cat B is 3.2-4w/kg so by that I should be in the top 3rd. I'm not. Not even close.

But that's fine, it's still fun regardless! In an 'oh my god I'm about to die' kind of way...

 

[UTmaniac]

2nd race of the Get Rolling series last night, oh boy that's a tough one! Nice mellow start as everyone was saving themselves for the titans grove rolling bit and then the KOM, 4 minutes at 305w avg up the KOM, when my FTP is 273w, and I was already fairly gassed, absolutely killed me. Lost the lead pack within sight of the summit but I was in survival mode by then, ended up 58th of 77. Both my get rolling races I'm hovering around the top of the last third, trying to get into the middle third.

Over FTP efforts for more than 30 seconds and less than 5 mins are my nemesis, so I'm happy with the results. Hopefully I'll improve this area with my training.

The first Zwift event that springs to mind to practice/race sub 5min efforts is the newly introduced part two of the Micro Mountain Massif climbs on Thursdays, up Hilly Reverse KOM, ~2Km event including the start from the pens.

Part one (~9mins from start, ~6mins from gravel track up the hill to finish) is ~3.2Km Sea To Tree at 1200 and 1815 BST, with the ~2Km part two at 1230 and 1845.

For a sadistic workout, do part one at 1200; then Team Electric Spirit's current Valley To Mountaintop at 1215; then the 1230 part two.

 

[Junglist]

You might still be in cat D as it's based on a number of your actual efforts, simplest way to check if you're riding frequently is look at an event with category enforcement.

It'll look something like this, if D is showing as restricted as C is for me then you'll only be able to enter in C.



You can also check on intervals.icu to see your actual CP (critical power) that's used.

Don't worry too much though, you need to be an experienced racer, know the courses and the strategies and have power at the top of your cat to get a place in the top 25% really. I'm 3.7w/kg and cat B is 3.2-4w/kg so by that I should be in the top 3rd. I'm not. Not even close.

But that's fine, it's still fun regardless! In an 'oh my god I'm about to die' kind of way...

Well according to Zwift I should be able to enter the D races. I should probably do an FTP test as I haven't done one since March so I'm not sure how accurate it is... I don't want to do it.

 

[Roady]

I'm keen to try races but I know I'll get my butt handed to me. I have a current w/kg of a measly 2.7 but that puts me just above Cat D and firmly at the bottom of Cat C. Can I enter races for Cat D or do I just have to accept I need to get better to have fun in Cat C?

Just jump in D and see what happens, likely you'll take a couple of races to get into it before pulling any real results so unlikely to push yourself to a DQ - although that'll totally depend on the series & admin. Once you're feeling good and 'enjoying it' - you're probably too strong for D and should be in C!

I really enjoy C racing at around the 3.2w/kg level I'm still kinda at. But if I race them and start pulling top results I'm so borderline that a hard race I'll just get myself DQ due to going over, some admins DQ me anyway as I'm otherwise riding in B elsewhere. So I can ride them quite normally with the average below 3.2, but am really sandbagging when I am. My sprints and segment efforts really being middle of the pack B.

Don't worry too much though, you need to be an experienced racer, know the courses and the strategies and have power at the top of your cat to get a place in the top 25% really. I'm 3.7w/kg and cat B is 3.2-4w/kg so by that I should be in the top 3rd. I'm not. Not even close.

Good point about CE, that squarely puts me in B and has done for a while - even when I was still racing in C and didn't feel I was ready for B. Even now I'm not good in B - has to be a busy race series for a big enough pack for me to hang in on. When I can my short power is good so can even get good points from race segments while being able to recover in the pack afterwards, but I'll hardly ever be able to hang on when the finish crazy-ness comes, nevermind get a result!

For a sadistic workout, do part one at 1200; then Team Electric Spirit's current Valley To Mountaintop at 1215; then the 1230 part two.

Look/filter for OTR on Zwiftpower, they do a 'Snap, Crackle, Pop' race series. All are custom races with a neutralised start, then a climb segment effort. Then a few mins rest, then go again. 4 races in a row 5-8km in length within an hour.

ZwiftPower - Login

Zwift race results and statistics.

zwiftpower.com

ZwiftPower - Login

Zwift race results and statistics.

zwiftpower.com

ZwiftPower - Login

Zwift race results and statistics.

zwiftpower.com

ZwiftPower - Login

Zwift race results and statistics.

zwiftpower.com

Brutal!

Well according to Zwift I should be able to enter the D races. I should probably do an FTP test as I haven't done one since March so I'm not sure how accurate it is... I don't want to do it.

Just jump in, race what you want and see what happens. If you want to do a test, do a 'Ramp Test' they're far less dreadful! Also if you then end up in a race where you're putting in a constant 20+min effort you'll also get the result you're after. So an iTT, or a race up something like ADZ, Epic KOM or Bologna maybe...

 

[robj20]

What's the best mode to rub my Kickr on for Zwift baseline, so that my gears are harder than they are?
Only got a 30t chain ring, 11t gear at the back.

Would having my bike in the easiest gear then using Resistance mode so it's not overly easy mean I can then go through my gears to up the power.

I only ever normally use ERG for training but just riding along my hard gear maxes out too easy.

 

[PikeyPriest]

What's the best mode to rub my Kickr on for Zwift baseline, so that my gears are harder than they are?
Only got a 30t chain ring, 11t gear at the back.

Would having my bike in the easiest gear then using Resistance mode so it's not overly easy mean I can then go through my gears to up the power.

I only ever normally use ERG for training but just riding along my hard gear maxes out too easy.

I don’t think you can make difficulty harder than the gradient in real life (only easier). I didn’t do it with my kickr before selling, but certainly people have zwift open while running other workout programs so should be possible to use the app to set a resistance or incline. If possible go for a gradient over a set power as it would allow gear changes to vary difficulty.

 

[TallPaul_S]

What's the best mode to rub my Kickr on for Zwift baseline, so that my gears are harder than they are?
Only got a 30t chain ring, 11t gear at the back.

Would having my bike in the easiest gear then using Resistance mode so it's not overly easy mean I can then go through my gears to up the power.

I only ever normally use ERG for training but just riding along my hard gear maxes out too easy.

The baseline ride is a normal ride, right? Not a workout where you get to choose erg mode or manual resistance.

Trainer difficulty may help, at 100% the ups and downs will be more severe, at 0% you'll be able to stay in one gear everywhere.

However, if you're running out of gears on the flat with the 30/11 then you have to look into if manual resistance mode can be turned on when free riding, which I don't think it can.

Or as above, have another app control the resistance, zwift will base your speed on your watts as that's all that matters.

 

[Trifid]

Just jump in D and see what happens, likely you'll take a couple of races to get into it before pulling any real results so unlikely to push yourself to a DQ - although that'll totally depend on the series & admin. Once you're feeling good and 'enjoying it' - you're probably too strong for D and should be in C!

I've jumped back into Zeift racing last weekend and was the same, it really takes a lot to mentally prepare for the onslaught of a race. First race I lasted 3 minutes, second 7 minutes and was good to finish in 28 minutes on the third attempt.

I really enjoy C racing at around the 3.2w/kg level I'm still kinda at. But if I race them and start pulling top results I'm so borderline that a hard race I'll just get myself DQ due to going over, some admins DQ me anyway as I'm otherwise riding in B elsewhere. So I can ride them quite normally with the average below 3.2, but am really sandbagging when I am. My sprints and segment efforts really being middle of the pack B.

From what I can see, most people do this. I dropped off the lead group but managed to hold off the second group with a couple of others. I am top of C power/weight and had this heart rate graph:

This is what the podium winners looked like:

As you can see, one was working a lot harder then the other!

 

[TallPaul_S]

I've jumped back into Zeift racing last weekend and was the same, it really takes a lot to mentally prepare for the onslaught of a race. First race I lasted 3 minutes, second 7 minutes and was good to finish in 28 minutes on the third attempt.



From what I can see, most people do this. I dropped off the lead group but managed to hold off the second group with a couple of others. I am top of C power/weight and had this heart rate graph:

This is what the podium winners looked like:

As you can see, one was working a lot harder then the other!

That's tactics.

The winner was undoubtedly better at conserving energy, staying in the pack whilst putting out as little watts as possible, to then capitalise on any climbs and/or the final sprint.

Also the top riders will have power in the upper limits of the category but if you look at the results you'll see that a lot of racers in the top 10 are actually putting out less watts than those in the bottom half. You can't just bludgeon everyone else with pure watts in zwift racing, because someone sitting at the back of the pack the entire race doing 50w less than you will come along and beast everyone with a 1000w sprint at the end


In my race last night the top 3 had FTP's of 3.8, 3.9 and 4w/kg. I'm at 3.74w/kg and came 58th.

 

[Trifid]

That's tactics.

The winner was undoubtedly better at conserving energy, staying in the pack whilst putting out as little watts as possible, to then capitalise on any climbs and/or the final sprint.

Also the top riders will have power in the upper limits of the category but if you look at the results you'll see that a lot of racers in the top 10 are actually putting out less watts than those in the bottom half. You can't just bludgeon everyone else with pure watts in zwift racing, because someone sitting at the back of the pack the entire race doing 50w less than you will come along and beast everyone with a 1000w sprint at the end


In my race last night the top 3 had FTP's of 3.8, 3.9 and 4w/kg. I'm at 3.74w/kg and came 58th.

Tactics is what those in denial call it. One person averages 3.2w/kg at threshold HR and another averages 3.2w/kg at zone 3. How much power could person two put out if they held their threshold HR?

 

[robj20]

The baseline ride is a normal ride, right? Not a workout where you get to choose erg mode or manual resistance.

Trainer difficulty may help, at 100% the ups and downs will be more severe, at 0% you'll be able to stay in one gear everywhere.

However, if you're running out of gears on the flat with the 30/11 then you have to look into if manual resistance mode can be turned on when free riding, which I don't think it can.

Or as above, have another app control the resistance, zwift will base your speed on your watts as that's all that matters.

I tried turning Zwift trainer control off and using the wahoo app but it made the greats feel strange like rough power delivery and the cadence dropped to 20rpm.
So ended up just doing my best but in the sprint section just about maxed out shows I managed 130rpm.
Ordered a 34t chainring the max my bike will take, since going 12sp I have some extra easy gears with the 50t.

 

[TallPaul_S]

Tactics is what those in denial call it. One person averages 3.2w/kg at threshold HR and another averages 3.2w/kg at zone 3. How much power could person two put out if they held their threshold HR?

Well for starters heart rate zones are different for everyone. 180bpm might be max for someone and 40bpm below max for someone else.

And average watts doesn't show the whole picture, again the best riders will be conserving energy, you will use up a lot of energy if get dropped or lead pack. A CAT A rider in prime position at the back of the lead pack on the flat might only be doing 200-250w whilst someone chasing the pack down or leading the pack will be doing up to 100w more.

I'm not saying there aren't sandbaggers, but a huge part of racing is down to tactics.

Also, don't use zwift for results, use zwift power - that's the official results and you'll find anyone without a HRM or with suspect power will be removed.

 

[Trifid]

Well for starters heart rate zones are different for everyone. 180bpm might be max for someone and 40bpm below max for someone else.

That is not what the graph is showing. It has their personalised auto detected zones 1-5 clearly displayed and time in each heart rate bracket.

And average watts doesn't show the whole picture, again the best riders will be conserving energy, you will use up a lot of energy if get dropped or lead pack. A CAT A rider in prime position at the back of the lead pack on the flat might only be doing 200-250w whilst someone chasing the pack down or leading the pack will be doing up to 100w more.

That still isn't what I'm saying. Power against their heart rate zones. No matter the person, putting out proportionally more power = higher heart rate. Hold your power back and you will be in a lower heart rate zone.

I'm not saying there aren't sandbaggers, but a huge part of racing is down to tactics.

I don't disagree. It also sucks being dropped instantly in the group above, it is no surprise people prefer to hang out at the top of the lower group as riding with others is more fun and their is a big dopamine hit doing the sprint at the end.

Also, don't use zwift for results, use zwift power - that's the official results and you'll find anyone without a HRM or with suspect power will be removed.

Zwiftpower won't pick up someone consistently not applying themselves in races, which is even more important now Zwift limits entering power classes.