the +7W was Trainer Road's 'AI FTP' result. I could've ignored it but gains are gains!
Though I'm not entirely sure what my 'form' is? If I can use it as an excuse to say I should be better then... yes?
The Indoor Riding/ Zwift/ TrainerRoad etc. Thread
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Though I'm not entirely sure what my 'form' is? If I can use it as an excuse to say I should be better then... yes?
Soldato
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the +7W was Trainer Road's 'AI FTP' result. I could've ignored it but gains are gains!
Though I'm not entirely sure what my 'form' is? If I can use it as an excuse to say I should be better then... yes?
Gains are always good! Just bare in mind that if you have a strong anaerobic engine, FTP estimates from some sites can inflate your estimate from short efforts. For example, https://intervals.icu/ uses 5mins (300secs) by default iirc, I typically change it in settings to 420secs+.
Strava and Intervals (plus other sites) use a "fitness/fatigue/form" system to take account of training load fatigue over the past 42 days. "Form" is simply fitness-fatigue, with decent data your legs should be quite fresh with a score near +10, a slightly negative score of up to approx -10 will probably reduce your legs' capabilities.
Well according to Strava my form is a gargantuan '1' and on Intervals it's a dizzying '-8'
What hardware?
I read the PC requirements and built a R5 3060 + GTX 1070 system to replace my HP Elitedesk SFF 4th gen Intel + GTX 1650. The program wouldn't start on the HP it after the recent updates to My Whoosh.
When I tried My Whoosh on my 2560 x 1080 UW monitor it was barely touching the GPU and actually Zwift was showing more usage. The engine appears capped to 30 fps. I switched my GTX 1650 for the GTX 1070 and again the engine seems capped to 30 fps on max settings. So to me it seemed my 4th gen Intel CPU was too old in the HP desktop only.
Hmm, I was going to try Rouvy tonight, then realised you need to give CC details before they let you try for 7 days. I was in gear and ready to go, so I just switched to Zwift. Tbh, I can see myself just carrying on with Zwift at the new price. It is good software and if they make the UI improvements we've read about, I can cancel Sauce4Zwift anyway.
I'm not sure if it's a bug, but I was given 12 months free for having a SYSTM membership (their alternative to Zwift, I forget what it's called now) but when I cancelled on 9th May, it says my next payment is due 9th May!? I'm sure my 12 months started a few months ago...
I'm not sure if it's a bug, but I was given 12 months free for having a SYSTM membership (their alternative to Zwift, I forget what it's called now) but when I cancelled on 9th May, it says my next payment is due 9th May!? I'm sure my 12 months started a few months ago...
Wow, been far too long since I dipped in here... But I figured I'd do a bit of a catch up and help explain some of the confuision from a few weeks ago I meant to do then didn't get around to it... But FIRST, my recent Zwift exploits! 
A couple of weeks back got involved in 'Ladder' racing with some EVO riders I'd ridden other stuff with getting drafted into EVO 'Odyssey'. a mixture of B+C riders, with only a couple of us climby/punchy and most of them heavier guys for flatter routes... They've been racing Friday and Tuesday but I've only done Tuesdays so far! Good fun. Small teams 5v5 is quite different racing than what I'm used to!
Loch Loop - 4th - https://www.strava.com/activities/11355194030 https://zwiftpower.com/events.php?zid=4371234 (brutal finish, chasing wheels as other team got 3 riders away we had to chase)
Glasgow Crit - 4th - https://www.strava.com/activities/11410908406 https://zwiftpower.com/events.php?zid=4378879 (planned to go long, 2 teammates got away, sprinted away from chase group)
Rising Empire - 3rd - https://www.strava.com/activities/11465664206 https://zwiftpower.com/events.php?zid=4386813 (brutal all the way, very selective, solo effort last part to get a result)
Last weekend was a FRR Charity Event day '24 Hours Atop VenTop' when riders all focused on ascending (+decending) Ventop as many times as they could within 24 hours for charity/fundraising/vEveresting/vCingles/biCingles.
www.strava.com
I'd planned 3 ascents myself, with possibly an aim at doing them in 6 hours. I hadn't got the time for any real training (apart from a 4-7 hour ride outdoors the weekend before), nor any real aim to do 24 hours as anything over 6 hours on Zwift would also be my longest ride on the platform. 3 ascents of Ventoux outdoors (as there are 3 different ascents) is a challenge called 'Club des Cingles du Ventoux' (translates to the 'Mount Ventoux Crazy Club' or similar!) where you descend to each of the climb starts and almost have a Brevet card to get stamped in each village, then you climb back up the mountain from that side. With only 1 ascent of VenTop on Zwift, although it has a 'loop around' at the top, crossing the finish banner is enough to then do a U turn - as is descending - although no loop there, you have to make sure you've passed the segment start point and then U-turn. It's a very nondescript part of the course with very few markers. Thankfully if you freewheel the whole descent (for anyone over 65kg) you'll 'naturally' roll over this line. So with it being a 15+ minute descent I took the opportunity to 'step away' from the bike. Eating, stretching, toilet break, kit changing etc. This was massive for me - the kit changes and getting off the bike stopped me suffering (too much) from saddle pain & sores. I was still utterly spent the 3rd time up - having to settle into 'just rolling' a recovery pace to keep going several times. I'm certainly capable of a sub 7h for 3 ascents maybe even a sub 6h with some real training... But also knowing I've done a 'half vEverest' (or basecamp...) that will be more the plan/challenge to aim for the next time I do anything like it (which I will need to train and plan a lot more for - as probably at least 10-12 hours on the bike).
Some trainers have a quicker/faster power curve so are 'better on Trainer Road' (like many of the Saris and Cyclops ones) as they're better ERG trainers. Most of the others are better ERG at certain 'speeds' - that's flywheel speed - which is semi-linked to the gearing you're in. Usually faster is easier for it to apply resistance to the flywheel and meet the power 'target'.
So your trainer being 2% under and your powermeter 1% higher - although that doesn't only translate to a 3% difference in their readings (my maths is failing me at this point), so them reading 5% difference is actually probably still within tolerances and all the other stuff thrown in. Even as much as 5-10% (or more) when doing a short interval with all that factored in, doesn't really have to mean either of them has to have a problem...
A couple of weeks back got involved in 'Ladder' racing with some EVO riders I'd ridden other stuff with getting drafted into EVO 'Odyssey'. a mixture of B+C riders, with only a couple of us climby/punchy and most of them heavier guys for flatter routes... They've been racing Friday and Tuesday but I've only done Tuesdays so far! Good fun. Small teams 5v5 is quite different racing than what I'm used to!
Loch Loop - 4th - https://www.strava.com/activities/11355194030 https://zwiftpower.com/events.php?zid=4371234 (brutal finish, chasing wheels as other team got 3 riders away we had to chase)
Glasgow Crit - 4th - https://www.strava.com/activities/11410908406 https://zwiftpower.com/events.php?zid=4378879 (planned to go long, 2 teammates got away, sprinted away from chase group)
Rising Empire - 3rd - https://www.strava.com/activities/11465664206 https://zwiftpower.com/events.php?zid=4386813 (brutal all the way, very selective, solo effort last part to get a result)
Last weekend was a FRR Charity Event day '24 Hours Atop VenTop' when riders all focused on ascending (+decending) Ventop as many times as they could within 24 hours for charity/fundraising/vEveresting/vCingles/biCingles.
Follow Haydn 'Roady' on Strava to see this activity. Join for free.
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You got to your own conculsion here are you are right in assuming the trainer in ERG and using a different power source is the cause. Basically when using your trainer as ERG it 'knows' what resistance to apply for any given cadence from you. It's accurate as it is controlling everything (which is why the power curves are so smooth), it doesn't have to fluxuate much. When you're using an 'outside' power meter, it's adjusting the trainer resistance to 'meet' the output from that powermeter, so is constantly adjusting (as the power meter is constantly measuring - even with smoothing set). Factor into that some trainer-delays to response (due to ramping/power curve), some delays of the internet latency, then the other way - the power changes for an interval from your platform back the other way... There's 'too much to go wrong' so is very hard for it to be smooth - even for a rider with perfectly smooth cadence and power delivery through a large part of their pedal stroke.For those of you with a power meters and a smart trainer. Which do you use? I feel like in ERG mode my set up is still really erratic but I'm starting to feel like a lot of this mess was my own doing.
My set up was Wahoo Kickr as the controllable, Assioma duos as Power/Cadence but the result would often look like this.
The watts would be all over the place. It was really difficult to stay steady. What would also happen is that for some reason I'd be spinning around 100-110rpm so I'd have to stop for a few seconds to give it a chance to get back down to 80-90rpm which is my comfort zone. Didn't matter which gear I was in, it would still slowly climb the RPM up to unsustainable numbers and before I knew it I would be back in 52x11.
<snip>
Am I right in thinking that using both the trainer and pedals together were complicating things and for the sake of ease, I should just leave everything to the trainer?
Correct, if anything a rider changing cadence 'throws' the ERG out further, as the trainer is having to do more adjustment. But if anything, due to the power ramp/curve of a trainer, if you drop a couple of gears when finishing a hard interval the trainer is having to change 'less' so the difference is quicker to 'apply' (it doesn't have to change so much resitance). You can do the opposite at the start of an interval by changing up a few gears - you're basically shortcutting the resistance it needs to apply at the given cadence, so less change = quicker it's applying the right resistance for the interval. It 'catches up' faster.
Some trainers have a quicker/faster power curve so are 'better on Trainer Road' (like many of the Saris and Cyclops ones) as they're better ERG trainers. Most of the others are better ERG at certain 'speeds' - that's flywheel speed - which is semi-linked to the gearing you're in. Usually faster is easier for it to apply resistance to the flywheel and meet the power 'target'.
Yup, 'ERG Spiral of death'. Some trainers (older Tacx) the power curve was so steep it would feel like 'hitting a wall' if you dropped some cadence - it basically applying more and more resitance to meet the power target. Most units (and even the controlling softwares) these days have an 'ERG pause' or more smoothing built in so the riders stands a chance when they drop cadence to not hit a 'wall'. The KICKR has always semi had this through the bigger flywheel, you drop that momentum you 'feel' it - which is why many racers like it and the 'road feel' has always been good compared to others.
Yup. But thinking into it too much too... Don't stress about a 1% accuracy difference between 2 power measurements which are either side of a drivechain. They'll never be that close when you factor other things in... Chainline (gear choice) can be a few %, a dirty chain or not enough lubrication another few %, a worn drivechain another few %. A good gear combo and efficient selection for the given resistance a few % the other way. A flexy shoe/slipping cleat another % loss. Maybe temperature changes since the last spindown/calibration another few %.My original line of through would be that I would have reliable power numbers both indoors and outside and the pedals are +/- 1% rather than the +/- 2% of the Kickr. Though it very much looks like I've overcomplicated things. Shock
So your trainer being 2% under and your powermeter 1% higher - although that doesn't only translate to a 3% difference in their readings (my maths is failing me at this point), so them reading 5% difference is actually probably still within tolerances and all the other stuff thrown in. Even as much as 5-10% (or more) when doing a short interval with all that factored in, doesn't really have to mean either of them has to have a problem...
With it so wet out, I thought I might as well give it a whirl tonight and I went up Soller, as I remember it being one of my fav climbs in Mallorca. I would say Rouvy is really good. It does a good job of making the video rather 3D. I added 3 ghost riders and 3 bots, although it was hard to find a bot of the pace I wanted... but I'll try that again soon. I think the 3 ghosts are just bots of similar power/time to what I'm doing right then. The downside of Rouvy is that you don't/can't just roll on after the climb. It ends, you seem to have an option of jumping to another climb/ride.
I apparently have Zwift for another year still, and Rouvy isn't all that much cheaper at 15 Euros... although I like you can buy a 5 pack for a year and effectively bring it down to about a fiver a month, if you find 4 to share with. it's good to know there is some other good software out there though.
It's quite an increase, providing you're already fairly 'stable' at where you are and just talking increasing power without a big hike in training time and not reducing weight... If you can shift a few KG it's easily achievable...
It took me some fairly consistent racing/riding with some tough races to bump me up a bit, to then hold at each increase - without a big training increase/time to get from around 3.2 to 3.6.
About time!
Back then Zwift didn't really have very much training sessions (other than basic ones of their own) or certainly not long term several-week-long plans. Then when they integrated (think they even worked with a training/coaching business) a bunch in, they stopped a lot of the other interaction to push their own. Since then it's opened up more (why there's GCN stuff etc on there) but think they're only loaded from the Zwift side and not really integration/API based.
Certainly on PC there used to be a folder you dropped a certain filetype into it and the workout would appear under 'custom' in the Zwift app. Bit of a manual process but not hard to do if that's still there (certainly with Xert you could hard code this location into the Xert app and it then dumped your daily ride into the folder - pre-AI the Xert app would scale the workout intensities of your weekly plan for various reasons, like fatigue levels/TSS burn of previous day.
Wahoo X doesn't give you anything other than training like Trainerroad. There's no 'landscape' now they've stopped RGT.
Not much free anymore, Rouvy, MyWhoosh and IndieVelo are paid subs (you can do some free on PC IV but not much). Not heard about Rolla. Think there might be a few others you get some free elements - but even now most of the subs are £12-15 per month. Compare those to Zwift and you're paying 60-85% the price for either a limited/unstable/beta product. Zwift may not do it well and it's hard to see the value... But when you compare to others you do get a lot in a fairly mature & stable product. Trainerroad costs more than Zwift doesn't it? Trainingpeaks is similar price to Wahoo X.
Lets be honest, most of us where happy with the previous Zwift sub. An extra fiver a month seems a lot so it is hard to see 'what you get' extra for it, but drink 1 less pint and 2 less energy gels... Put it into context. What's a Gym membership these days, etc...
You need a paid 'founders' account to ride some IV events or to use it on anything other than a PC. They list Android and ChromOS but not heard anything about them.
MW you need a paid account but you need good hardware to run it well. There is a 'GO' edition for lower spec devices but it crashes a lot. You're funding the UAE.
I'm very limited on AppleTV and after riding some RGT really liked it, but couldn't justify paying for it alongside Zwift but could ride it for free (did some TTT's). The team I rode with moved to IV and I tried it free on an old PC, didn't go well. There's no way I'm paying for a founders sub for it, not long term anyway from what I've seen. Cannot justify the cost for a 'beta' product. Whereas I can justify the price increase from Zwift. I feel I get my monies worth from it, I've subscribed for a long time (nearly 10 years) and it has been a quality product for much of that.
For others to 'replace' Zwift for me, it'll take more than a reduction in subscription. Yes I'll try them and like them, but until they're doing almost as much as Zwift is doing, at almost the same level of interaction, with almost the same stability and selection/choice/riders for less money. It'll be a hard sell for me...
MyWhoosh is completely free.
TrainerRoad is £16 a month. With a few extra pence depending on the exchange rate that month.
So it's not much cheaper than Zwift but, currently, I find it better value. I'll probably dip into one of the virtual world platforms once it gets to November. Could it be Zwift? Maybe as I do like some of the routes on there but 99% of the time I have Zwift on the small screen and entertainment on the bigger screen. Unless it's like the tours or the odd race but they're in the minority of my Zwift time
So it's not much cheaper than Zwift but, currently, I find it better value. I'll probably dip into one of the virtual world platforms once it gets to November. Could it be Zwift? Maybe as I do like some of the routes on there but 99% of the time I have Zwift on the small screen and entertainment on the bigger screen. Unless it's like the tours or the odd race but they're in the minority of my Zwift time
Maybe for some of it... But when you consider the hardware requirements and the entry requirements for the real racing where you can win money it isn't
Sunday Race Club: Categories, Team Rules, & Hardware Requirements | MyWhoosh
Join MyWhoosh Sunday Race Club and explore dynamic categories for fair racing. Learn how categories evolve and adapt throughout the month. Find a team and meet hardware requirements for a smooth racing experience.
www.mywhoosh.com
There's a short list of the supported trainers & secondary power meters you have to use as well I've seen doing the rounds. Quite specific - like the Wahoo KICKR Core is not allowed, only the full KICKR v4 upwards etc. I wouldn't be able to enter as a single sided crank arm powermeter as a secondary is not valid, has to be dual sided etc...
MyWhoosh – Recommended Specs for Windows
- Processor: Intel i9 10th Gen, AMD Ryzen 9.
- RAM: 64GB.
- GPU: AMD RX6900 XT, Nvidia RTX 3090.
- Storage: NVME M 2.0 SSD (Free space of 15gb at least)
- OS: Windows 10 or 11.
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I'd imagine racing is still quiet a niche use.Maybe for some of it... But when you consider the hardware requirements and the entry requirements for the real racing where you can win money it isn't
Sunday Race Club: Categories, Team Rules, & Hardware Requirements | MyWhoosh
Join MyWhoosh Sunday Race Club and explore dynamic categories for fair racing. Learn how categories evolve and adapt throughout the month. Find a team and meet hardware requirements for a smooth racing experience.
There's a short list of the supported trainers & secondary power meters you have to use as well I've seen doing the rounds. Quite specific - like the Wahoo KICKR Core is not allowed, only the full KICKR etc. I wouldn't be able to enter as a single sided crank arm powermeter is not valid, has to be dual sided etc...
MyWhoosh – Recommended Specs for Windows
- Processor: Intel i9 10th Gen, AMD Ryzen 9.
- RAM: 64GB.
- GPU: AMD RX6900 XT, Nvidia RTX 3090.
- Storage: NVME M 2.0 SSD (Free space of 15gb at least)
- OS: Windows 10 or 11.
My laptop specs are no where near that and I'm managing just fine.
I3, 8GB RAM, no dedicated GPU.
Soldato
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Try it on your mobile?
Worked fine on my stronger Poco F3, some routes seemed to cause issues on my weaker Mi A2.
Soldato
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Tiny Races are trying a new format this Saturday, 1st June...
All five pens used for categories, pen E being for those like me with the weakest power data (rather than for those without any data from the past 90 days).
Instead of pen allocation based on zMAP and zFTP like standard Category Enforcement races, they are trying one of the custom options rarely used since being available for ~12 months, namely VO2.
More details including this week's hilly and flat super sprint courses...
zwiftinsider.com
All five pens used for categories, pen E being for those like me with the weakest power data (rather than for those without any data from the past 90 days).
Instead of pen allocation based on zMAP and zFTP like standard Category Enforcement races, they are trying one of the custom options rarely used since being available for ~12 months, namely VO2.
More details including this week's hilly and flat super sprint courses...
Tiny Race Series Details: Current Routes, Recent Results, and More
Important Note Re: Pen Enforcement This week (January 7), Zwift enabled pen enforcement for the first time (read more). That means your racing score is checked when you attempt to enter the start p…
zwiftinsider.com
Associate
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- 1,673
Soo close to being Cat C rather than B. My best 5 minute power was set at the same time as my 12, 15 and 20 so may not be representative….Tiny Races are trying a new format this Saturday, 1st June...
All five pens used for categories, pen E being for those like me with the weakest power data (rather than for those without any data from the past 90 days).
Instead of pen allocation based on zMAP and zFTP like standard Category Enforcement races, they are trying one of the custom options rarely used since being available for ~12 months, namely VO2.
More details including this week's hilly and flat super sprint courses...
Tiny Race Series Details: Current Routes, Recent Results, and More
Important Note Re: Pen Enforcement This week (January 7), Zwift enabled pen enforcement for the first time (read more). That means your racing score is checked when you attempt to enter the start p…
The problem with the cats is that my ftp could be 4.4 W/kg, but I can win B races with low chance of upgrade as you are unlikely to be setting 5 or 20 minute times that will put you up a Category, outside of a time trial.
Soldato
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- 9,195
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- Southampton, hopefully not too hot, or too cold
Before mid March, I might have just been over the VO2 minimum D as per the Tiny Races chosen ranges for this weekend, on a good day. But whatever I had for 4/5 weeks giving me worse fatigue than normal from my long covid, has left me with really weak legs and knees just like in early weeks after covid in Oct '22 that turned into and is still ongoing long covid. So I'm now struggling to do ~2.6W/Kg for 5mins (which normally determines VO2, but who knows if ZwiftHQ are using their own "special" formula), rather than ~3.2 on a good day (which would risk fatigue payback for the following few days), I'll be amazed if I finish better than mid-pack E if I take part on Saturday.
Standard "Category Enforcement" pen allocation has been a disaster zone for sometime now, from whenever zFTP became an estimate of what we could sustain for ~60mins (rather than the pre-CE system looking at 20min ability).
We're still waiting for ZwiftHQ to release "Racing Score v2" and replace Category Enforcement, after the awful mess they proposed under v1 last summer and since then Flint was one of the redundancies made a few months back.
A few of us have been trying to gently coax Zwift Insider's Eric to try the custom pen allocations written about ~13 months ago https://zwiftinsider.com/ce-custom-limits/ and thankfully he's giving VO2 a try, because it seems he has also got sick of waiting for "Racing Score v2" and hates the flaws in the default CE system. It will be interesting to see how things pan out this weekend and Eric always has the option to tweak VO2 ranges for each pen in future weekends.