The Liverpool Club Thread. **No Spoilers**

Looks all but certain that our 2nd leg vs Leipzig will be played in Budapest due to Leipzig having to quarantine if they travel to the UK.

You can see it now, we're going to lose 3-1 and go out on away goals having played both games in the exact same neutral stadium.
 
Kabak got injured vs Chelsea and unlikely to play at the weekend :D It's just getting silly now.

It can't be long before we're lining up with Fabinho and Wijnaldum at CB with Firmino as our holding midfielder.
 
Wonder if Robertson could play at CB kind of like how Azpilicueta has done for Chelsea.
He's played in a back 3 for Scotland. The problem with all our CB options right now is they all need a proper, experienced, dominant CB alongside them. If you had a VVD or Matip then you could pick any of Robertson, Phillips, Kabak, Davies, even Wijnaldum alongside them and it wouldn't be a big issue.

The issue we're having with long straight balls at the moment isn't simply down to having a high line or even a lack of pace at the back. The biggest problem is we don't have somebody at the back that knows when to attack the ball, when to drop off or when to push up and play offside.
Could Davies actually be fit? Phillips has played well so it’ll likely be him and Fab.
I actually think Phillips might have played ahead of Kabak had he been fit yesterday. Hopefully him and Davies will be fit at the weekend but there's plenty of time still for someone's leg to fall off.
 
I know that an injury crisis like this is almost unheard of, but it does make Klopp’s decision not to replace Klavan or Lovren very foolish.
This argument winds me up a little bit. We did replace Lovren but rather than replacing him with Kabak (the CB we were being linked with), we replaced him with Fabinho by signing an extra CM in the summer.

I was always on-board with that decision in the summer but after seeing how Kabak has performed since arriving, I'm even more in agreement with that decision. Had we signed Kabak and let Wijnaldum leave we'd have been in a worse position than we have been this season. The only difference would have been, instead of having Wijnaldum in midfield and Fabinho at CB, we'd have had Fabinho in midfield (because we've had loads of injuries there) and Kabak as our main CB.
 
We can get away with a high line, 9 times out of 10, as long as the more defensive minded midfielder drops back to make a back three which allows the two centre backs to spread out and cover more of the pitch. That hasn't happened since Henderson joined Fabinho at the back although in all fairness, it did look like Klopp was trying to address that against Sheffield United by having one of the fullbacks stay back when the other bombed forward. VVD marshalling the backline just makes it even more effective as highlighted by our ridiculous offside record for the past two seasons.
I mentioned after the game yesterday, I wonder if a back 3 is an option for us. You could even do it with Wijnaldum alongside two of Kabak, Phillips & Davies, allowing you to put Fabinho back into the holding role. Gini's role would just be as a sweeper and somebody to bring the ball out of the back.
 
I am sure the club will be aware of his fitness record and the causes and risks involved. At 21 and nearly 2m tall it wouldn't surprise me if some of his fitness issues are simply down to him still growing into his body. I remember Gerrard having a lot of injury problems at the start of his career which were directly linked to big growth spurts in his late teens.

Assuming it's true, it's not that surprising. When we were linked with Upamecano I remember Rory Smith saying that Konate's the one we were going for and he ticks the two boxes for what Klopp looks for in a CB, aerial dominance and pace.
 
Yea, he looked a mess vs us and Utd in the CL this season. I won't pretend to have watched much of him but he's been hyped up as the next big CB that everybody was after. There's a few shouts that Konate's meant to be a bigger talent than him only for injuries to have held him back.
 
I can't remember where I posted it but sometime I ago I wrote something about FSG raising capital by selling a stake to group of investors headed up by Richard Scudamore and Billy Beane. That exact deal fell through but the main money man behind that group, Gerry Cardinale, has done the deal by himself through his company RedBird.

He's invested $735m for a 10% stake in FSG so that's not just Liverpool. RedBird already own numerous sports related businesses including Toulouse in France and all the reports coming out are that this investment will be used for future growth of FSG, potentially buying more sports sides in the States and most likely other European football clubs.

As I said at the time when the news first came out, this won't have direct benefits to Liverpool in the short term, although FSG having extra capital won't be a bad thing with the Anfield Road redevelopment ongoing. The long term benefits will come through bigger and more direct connections in other Leagues, places to send younger players on loan and a way around the new regulations on signing under 21 year olds post brexit. Having a big group of clubs and sports teams around the world is also likely to have its benefits when it comes to commercial and possible broadcast deals in the future too.
Fun fact, i used to play 5-a-side with Rory. Decent player!
And a very good journalist, although I did once upset him on twitter by saying he looked like a young Martin Samuel.
 
I'd be very surprised if we signed him, certainly for anything like £18m. My instinct is the club weren't happy with the Konate reports coming out, whether true or not, and might be feeding this to the press themselves.
 
There's so much overcompensating going on here. Yes Phillips is worse and yes he's young but that doesn't make Kabak any good - in pretty much every game he's played he's made a mistake. Not much got said about his part in Villa's goal yesterday because the focus was on Alisson but watch Kabak - he makes the first challenge then just stops, allowing Watkins inside him. He lacks basic awareness that a CB needs and like Phillips (although not so bad) he gets bamboozled by any long ball that goes over his head - it's like watching two headless chickens every time a side knocks a ball over the top.

I've not seen anything from him to suggest he'll be good enough to play for us long term and if we are to sign a CB this summer, we need a far better one than him and I can't see a scenario where we sign two.
 
I said if but I'm sure we'll sign one and the decision won't be one the directors make. Whoever we sign and if we sign x is the decision of two people, Michael Edwards and Klopp.

As for how VVD, Gomez & Matip come back, I'm not too sure about Gomez's injury as I can't recall too many players suffering from it in the past but the general view of docs & physio's re VVD & ACL's is that the vast majority of players get back to 100% within 9 and 12 months and those that do suffer setbacks are the ones that rush back. Obviously there are no guarantees and we have to go into the season with 4 senior CB's but signing Kabak as a 5th seems a waste of money to me. If you're 5th choice CB is somebody that's not going to be good enough then save £10m and keep Phillips or Davies, one of them plus Hendo & Fab are enough emergency cover.

Now I've said that all 4 senior CB's will break their leg in the opening game of next season.
 
I don't think vast majority of players return to 100% after ACL injuries....
I'm not a doctor but there were a number of articles from physios and doctors in regards to VVD & ACL's and the general view was that better surgery and treatment these days means most players do return to 100%. I'm pretty sure I wrote something on here regarding the comments of one particular doctor who said the biggest obstacle players face now is psychological than physical - by not trusting their knee they go into challenges half hearted and as a result are more likely to pick up injuries.

And iinm Gomez's done his right ACL and this injury was to his left knee. But I agree with the general point, we have to go into next season with 4 senior CB's plus a few emergency options.

Regarding talk of a rebuild, I think that's a little ott. We've been absolutely cursed with injuries this season, far worse than I've ever seen before but other than two major injuries to VVD & Gomez, our biggest issues have been a result of the unreliablity, both fitness and form, of fringe players. Players like Origi, Ox, Shaq & Keita were hardly pivotal to our success in recent years but this season, due to the nature of the season and our fitness issues, we've needed them and they've either not been fit or they've not performed. The average age of the midfield and front 3 needs bringing down but that will naturally happen with new signings coming in and older players slowly being phased out. If I were to guess, I'd say we're going to sign a CB, a midfielder to replace Gini and sign another versatile forward to replace Origi, all 3 will likely be sub 24 years old. Other signings will depend on outgoings but I suspect the club would like to move on at least one of Shaq, Ox or Keita (the latter being least likely to leave) and signing another versatile midfielder.
 
VVD done an interview with the clubs website today where he's confirmed he won't be going to the Euros this summer. I hate International football and would love all Liverpool players not to go but I feel a bit gutted for him. It's the right decision though and with a full pre-season under his belt he'll be ready to go for the start of next season.
 
I'm a Liverpool fan and think very highly of Trent. I wouldn't swap him for Foden, but think Foden will go on to another level
To Trent's level or beyond? If it's the latter then I don't see it and it's not a slight on Foden. What Trent's already done as a RB is off the charts - he's changed how we see RB's. In years gone by a top class attacking fullback was somebody than got up the pitch a bit, smashed the odd 30 yarder in the top corner and picked up 4-5 assists. Trent's attacking output is so far ahead of anything we've seen before. He's not just getting 10+ assists and key pass numbers similar to creative midfielders but he's running games from RB.

If Foden can reach the level where he's one of the best players in the world in his position then he's done well, I can't see him reinventing that position and surpassing those that have gone before him though.
 
.... but how much of this is due to the way Klopp had Liverpool playing.
How many top class sides across Europe in the past 10 years haven't had attack minded fullbacks? Look at the Barca, Real, Bayern, City sides of recent years, they've all had fullbacks that have been in the side for their attacking abilities more than their defensive abilities. Nobody is convincing me that Dani Alves, Marcelo, Walker etc are any better defenders than Trent, they're just not as effective as he's been going forward as he has been, nor had the same influence on the game across the 90 minutes as he does.

And it's far more than our system regarding Trent too. Robertson plays in the same system and yes, he gets a hell of a lot of assists too but he doesn't have the influence on the game across 90 minutes like Trent has. I was discussing playmakers in the transfer thread the other day and how they can play in different parts of the pitch and still do the same things. I don't think we've seen a fullback as a playmaker before and that's exacty what Trent is and was for us. The arrival of Thiago has given us somebody else that can get on the ball and make things happen but from 18/19 to 19/20, Trent was our primary playmaker. He wasn't just bombing forward, whipping crosses into the box, he was playing as a quarter back, hitting switches of play and throughballs to our forwards.
 
Just doesn't play in quite the same manner as TAA, more direct and gets into and around the box more.
I'm glad you made the Marcelo point. The monster Marcelo, who is far more direct and gets in and around the box more than Trent didn't create anything like the number of chances or goals as Trent has. Not only will Trent more than double the number of assists Marcelo's picked up in his career (at 22 he already has half the number as Marcelo at 33), Trent also gets on the ball in deeper positions and has a far bigger input on the overall game. Trent is far more effective as an attacking fullback than any of the greats we've seen before and he offers much more than they do to.

And who are you comparing with when you say he has more attacking freedom? He has no more attacking freedom than Dani Alves, Alba, Marcelo, Kyle Walker etc
 
So in Dani Alves peak years, most of which came in a Barca side that had 70% possession and were winning by cricket scores each week, he assisted at a lower rate than Trent? For balance, at a similar stage in Alves career to what Trent is at now (I've not gone in to too much detail, just his first 5 seasons), he'd picked up 11 assists in all comps. Trent has 40 odd.

The fact that Trent's assisting at a rate better than any of the previous great attcking fullbacks despite not reaching is peak, isn't what prompted me to say he's redefined the position - as fez said, we've always had attacking fullbacks, just not as effective as Trent. What Trent has changed is that he's not just another Alves, Marcelo, Evra, Cole or Andy Robertson or whoever else that bombs down the flank, overlapping the wide player. Of course, he does that too but that's not the limit to his attacking contribution. He gets on the ball in far deeper positions and influences the game for 90 minutes, not just 5 minutes when he's making overlapping runs. Look at his performance vs Utd at Old Trafford for example, how many of the chances he created or attacks he started came from passes closer to the halfway line than goalline. And that's one example of many. In Liverpool's two best seasons in my life time, he was the main playmaker doing the things Gerrard would have done in years gone by or what KdB does at City.

The only other time (at a high level anyway) I can remember fullbacks having the same level of influence on games that I can remember was during Pep's time at Bayern - like Trent, Lahm (when he wasn't playing CM) and Alaba where playing as midfielders in possession, controlling the game but they didn't have anything like the attacking output Trent has.
 
I was and i am.

How you can say a 22 year old has redefined a position is beyond me. Perhaps wait til the end of his career before making bold statements like that.
How are the trials for the new offside law coming along? It's beyond me that IFAB aren't doing these themselves and entrusted people doing (possible imaginary) coaching courses.

What does his age have to do with anything and why would I need to wait until his career is over. He's taken what fullbacks do to a new level.
 
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