The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Prime)

[Thekwango]

really enjoying the Arondir story arc, good story line to it, decent acting and i like the chap playing Arondir. still struggling with amorfydd clark, she just doesn't have enough screen presence, imo, to pull off being Galadriel. she just seems to lack 'oomph' when she's on screen. harfoots and their changing accents are still doing my head in but over all i'm starting to warm up to it all. halbrand done messed up those builder guild dudes!!

 

[C Kent]

Where though? I'm guessing it's not in the stuff they have the rights to.

I don't think Tolkien ever confirmed who the witch king was did he? Left the Nazgul's origins deliberately vague 'powerful men, kings, sorcerers, warriors of old', 3 of them were Numenoreans. The only one that was named was Kamul.

 

[Mr Jack]

I don't think Tolkien ever confirmed who the witch king was did he? Left it deliberately vague 'powerful men, kings, sorcerers, warriors of old', 3 of them were Numenoreans. The only one that was named was Kamul.

That's what I thought. But... Tolkien wrote a lot of stuff, there's plenty I haven't read and more that I don't remember.

 

[Darujhistan]

One very funny bit i've just remembered was Isildur talking about having a gap year, I wonder what is the ME equivalent of Goa?

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

The balrogs are an interesting one. I found this some time ago but just dug it out.
Shows Tolkien revised their number more than once.

Eventually ending with "In the margin my father wrote: 'There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7 ever existed.'"
Having previously written "The early conception of Balrogs makes them less terrible, and certainly more destructible, than they afterwards became: they existed in 'hundreds' (p. 170), and were slain by Tuor and the Gondothlim in large numbers: "thus five fell before Tuor's great axe Dramborleg, three before Ecthelion's sword, and two score were slain by the warriors of the king's house."

I guess the end state was more LOTR with a balrog being practically impossible to kill for "normal" ME residents

It just highlights the issues with Tolkiens works, they were more ramblings with bits of semi joined up parts into a few books.
When he revised things such as this do you go by the few published books or the more numerous basically unpublished scrolls manuscripts.
We know many authors and directors will change things at a later date but Tolkien took that to the extreme, mainly I suspect as has been recorded many times, he didn't really have a plan and rewrote parts as he went.

 

[fez]

We know many authors and directors will change things at a later date but Tolkien took that to the extreme, mainly I suspect as has been recorded many times, he didn't really have a plan and rewrote parts as he went.

The best Tolkien interview snippet...

 

[Thekwango]

The best Tolkien interview snippet...

is that legit??

 

[Mr Jack]

is that legit??

No, it's not. Sadly.

 

[Darujhistan]

It ought to be.

 

[Rroff]

The balrogs are an interesting one. I found this some time ago but just dug it out.
Shows Tolkien revised their number more than once.

Eventually ending with "In the margin my father wrote: 'There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7 ever existed.'"
Having previously written "The early conception of Balrogs makes them less terrible, and certainly more destructible, than they afterwards became: they existed in 'hundreds' (p. 170), and were slain by Tuor and the Gondothlim in large numbers: "thus five fell before Tuor's great axe Dramborleg, three before Ecthelion's sword, and two score were slain by the warriors of the king's house."

I guess the end state was more LOTR with a balrog being practically impossible to kill for "normal" ME residents

It just highlights the issues with Tolkiens works, they were more ramblings with bits of semi joined up parts into a few books.
When he revised things such as this do you go by the few published books or the more numerous basically unpublished scrolls manuscripts.
We know many authors and directors will change things at a later date but Tolkien took that to the extreme, mainly I suspect as has been recorded many times, he didn't really have a plan and rewrote parts as he went.

My personal take on Balrogs has always been that there was a range of them in terms of power, etc. with a smaller number of prominently powerful ones and a larger number of still powerful but not so overpowered ones - it fits most of the individual sections on them, just doesn't tie up with some of Tolkien's later notes.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

My personal take on Balrogs has always been that there was a range of them in terms of power, etc. with a smaller number of prominently powerful ones and a larger number of still powerful but not so overpowered ones - it fits most of the individual sections on them, just doesn't tie up with some of Tolkien's later notes.

I suspect it was just simply Tolkien being Tolkien and it was evolving from them in his thoughts at certain times to being not that strong vs the greatest of the other races, especially the Noldor and Maiar

A lot of modern fantasy is more lore dependent, and or magic system dependent. So they do a lot more lore in advance and then write around that. Either their own system, or if you take say Weiss and Hickman Dragons of X and Twins stuff around D&D Core.

The difference is that if its based on a set of "rules" or lore its far less likely to be contradictory later.

Tolkien was in effect cutting edge on what he was writing and changing and making it up as he went.

I think the very nature of Balrogs at least at the end was there really only ever could have been a few by the nature of what they were and hence I don't think there ever could have been that many.
Certainly not to the level over 30 would be slain in one battle.

Its just Tolkien IMO, a pretty uncrafted realm, many years of writing and revision and IMO I think from what I have heard from him he didn't really care that much to make it completely coherent.
My person take is he would actually find most of the lore arguments as a bit of a joke and I could see him telling someone to shutup.

 

[C Kent]

.
My person take is he would actually find most of the lore arguments as a bit of a joke and I could see him telling someone to shutup.

I expect you are right, only because it was his way or the highway

 

[C Kent]

Hmm, the HoD showrunner is a disgruntled former Amazon employee - shame we didn't get the Conan series he was working on

 

[Darujhistan]

I don't really think Tolkien's thought his life's work was a joke. I think it just got beyond him to complete (unlike George who just got too lazy), a vision so epic in scale it would have taken a man of even his intellect several life-times to complete. I don't buy into this nonsense that becuase something is incomplete, contradictory or NOT SPELLED OUT EVERYWHRE IN MASSIVE CAPITALS then it's ok to do what you like with ssomeone's material.

His World and Legendarium have been established for 7 decades, Christopher knew what it was, the fan-base knows what it is, Tom Shippey and the artists that have graced his work know what his World is...

Then suddenly amazon shows up and within 2-3 years they now KNOW what his World is, and JRR was wrong, and the fans are all wrong?

Get ******.

"Destroyers and Usurpers! Curse them!"

In the end though, it doesn't really matter as we'll be here, and the Legendarium and Lore will remain intact, long after the show has been forgotten and amazon have gone on to wreck another IP.

 

[Rroff]

I think the very nature of Balrogs at least at the end was there really only ever could have been a few by the nature of what they were and hence I don't think there ever could have been that many.
Certainly not to the level over 30 would be slain in one battle.

The Maiar were said to be numerous and diverse of ability and powers - no reason there couldn't have been a fair number of Balrogs especially if they were of differing levels of ability and power.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

The Maiar were said to be numerous and diverse of ability and powers - no reason there couldn't have been a fair number of Balrogs especially if they were of differing levels of ability and power.

They were indeed, but they needed to be corrupted my Morgoth during the creation so its reasonable to assume there were not that many, unless he setup a production line

But again this is back to the root cause, my view, your view, Tolkiens contradictory writings etc.
He cannot be correct to have many and only a few at the same time, unless they were Schrodlingers balrogs, simultaneously many and few

 

[Darujhistan]

Hmm, the HoD showrunner is a disgruntled former Amazon employee - shame we didn't get the Conan series he was working on

But we're making it all up! It's nothing to do with politics!

Shame we didn't get his LOTR, or even better HBO doing it. Can you imagine HBO doing Tolkien?

But we got Bad Reboot, Kathleen Kennedy 2.0, and amazon instead.

 

[Rroff]

They were indeed, but they needed to be corrupted my Morgoth during the creation so its reasonable to assume there were not that many, unless he setup a production line

But again this is back to the root cause, my view, your view, Tolkiens contradictory writings etc.
He cannot be correct to have many and only a few at the same time, unless they were Schrodlingers balrogs, simultaneously many and few

It is only his last note which is contradictory - all the other sections can be reconciled otherwise if there was only 3 or at most 7 of exceptional power and more of lesser power.

 

[C Kent]

Can you imagine HBO doing Tolkien?

But we got Bad Reboot, Kathleen Kennedy 2.0, and amazon instead.

Would have been good to have a company that had a decent track record in the genre that's for sure.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

It is only his last note which is contradictory - all the other sections can be reconciled otherwise if there was only 3 or at most 7 of exceptional power and more of lesser power.

Your twisting hard here

There are others as well, I didn't put them, i went from the two extremes. But it seems on trend he went from many semi weak to very few very powerful.