The Manchester United Club Thread **Sponsored by Comedy Central**

[Thekwango]

It's very rare that I agree with Frank but he's absolutely right about this. It's hard enough for Utd to persuade the best players to join them over other clubs right now and you expect them to be able to do it while keeping the manager a secret? The best players will want to know who they're playing for, what system they'll be playing in, the role the manager sees them playing. Imagine competing for a player that's just sat down with Klopp or Pep who, with all their charisma, has told them how great they are, how much they want them in their side, playing in x role and how they will link up with x and y. What chance has Woodward or some DoF got of persuading that player to join Utd without having to double their wage offer?

There's also the reverse issue of signing players without having a manager. Even the strongest DoF set-ups require a managers input. Signing players that a manager does not want is a recipe for disaster.

ordinarily i'd be in 100% agreement with both yourself and Frank. However, Man Utd are not in an ordinary situation. extraordinary situations often require extraordinary solutions. we could go round in circles for days on this but ultimately i doubt there's anyone on this forum will convince me that it was the correct decision to announce OGS's permanent appointment when they did. i hope it was but i doubt it.

look at the dross they have signed while a manager has been in place......not really much of an argument for the status quo to be maintained.

i'll repeat this till the cows come home, United at this moment in time need players who want to play for the club. simple as that.
don't announce OGS until 1st June. any contact with potential targets is done through EW and the DoF that they should have had in place before OGS. OGS outlines his plan his vision. EW/DoF/Fred the Red sells that to the potential player, with the caveat that they won't/can't release the name of the manager until 1st June. those that have been charmed by the klopps/peps/whoevers of this world will be scantly missed, those that are interested in playing for United will wait.

United are in a period of transition the like of which they've not seen for 30 odd years. they have had ample time since SAF left to sort that transition out but the truth is they are probably in a worse state now than they were when Fergie left. United are a huge club and always will be but there needs to be a reality check on their expectations at this moment in time. a solid bedrock needs to be set down again of players who would sweat blood for the club, then look at progressing.

these constant knee jerk reactions are doing nothing to stabilise the club or move it forward. ultimately i hope OGS's appointment turns out to be hugely successful, maybe it was the risk the club needed to take. but as i said, no one will convince me that the decision to announce it when they did was the right option irrespective how his long term future pans out.

 

[BaZ87]

ordinarily i'd be in 100% agreement with both yourself and Frank. However, Man Utd are not in an ordinary situation. extraordinary situations often require extraordinary solutions. we could go round in circles for days on this but ultimately i doubt there's anyone on this forum will convince me that it was the correct decision to announce OGS's permanent appointment when they did. i hope it was but i doubt it.

Whether you ultimately don't agree with announcing the manager when they did is another thing to your arguement about one particular reason why they did. Who the manager is will directly impact on players renewing contracts and your ability to sign new players.

As for your general point, I've not read your entire exchange with Frank so I'm not sure if you're saying Utd shouldn't have committed to giving Solskjaer the job until the summer or whether they should have signed the contract but just not announced it until the summer. If it's the latter then I really struggle to undesrstand the reasoning for that. If you think making the announcement a couple of months before the end of the season impacted on the players performance then this Utd squad's got a far worse attitude than even I ever thought and I thought for sometime that they're full of prima donna's and fairweather players.

i'll repeat this till the cows come home, United at this moment in time need players who want to play for the club. simple as that.

The days of players growing up wanting to play for one club are gone or at least restrict you to a very tiny pool of players that are almost certainly not good enough to take Utd to where you want them to be. You have to give players a reason to want to join the club and just saying "we're Utd" isn't going to work when those same players are being targetted by Barca or Bayern. All Utd have to offer now is money and their attempts at spending there way out of trouble hasn't worked.

I've been saying since before the start of the season that the first thing Utd need to do is get their house in order, decide on what club they're going to be, plan how they're going to get there and then appoint the people to implement that plan. All the shouts for Utd getting a DoF/Sporting Director is great but who? How can you decide on who's the best person for the job when you don't even know what sort of club you are trying to be? At Liverpool we've got Michael Edwards - he's a number cruncher that works alongside our scouts to identify targets before Klopp takes them down Blackpool Pleasure Beach and gives them a hug. That works for Liverpool because everybody at the club from the owners down to Klopp are on the same page - the owners and Klopp trust Edwards and his spreadsheet to find him players and Klopp has very few problems convincing players to join Liverpool. It's hard enough to get things right even when you know the direction the club want to go in. It took Liverpool years to eventually get the right people in place to reach the stage we are at now, Utd appointing somebody like Edwards without fully being on board with the way he works and having a manager that trusts him and is able to sell the club to players (because Edwards isn't the man for that) would be about as useful as giving Sanchez £500k per week.

 

[Thekwango]

Utd shouldn't have committed to giving Solskjaer the job until the summer

that would have been, for me, the preferable option.

All Utd have to offer now is money and their attempts at spending there way out of trouble hasn't worked.

i will always 100% disagree with that, Man Utd will always be an attractive option for some damn good quality players. in the same way even when Liverpool couldn't kick the ground never mind a football they were still an attraction for some players.
yes, of course you will limit your pool of players. but at this moment in time a limited pool of players who want to play for the club would be preferable to current recruitment process.

It took Liverpool years to eventually get the right people in place to reach the stage we are at now

it only took years because as a club they were living in the past, fantasising about past glories and the powerhouse on the pitch they used to be instead of realising that while they were still a huge club and an attraction for many players their goals and aspirations needed to change until they got their ship in order. Utd and their fans are in the exact same situation. sentiment is clouding judgement. 'we used to win everything, we'll just spend money and keep winning'.....don't work like that unfortunately. they need to return to having a solid bedrock, a base on which the flair players can flourish. as i said in a previous post, at this moment in time Utd need a team of 'McTominay's' - young lads who will leave the contents of their guts on the pitch if needs be. Not pogba's or Sanchez's. sure they will get found out against the better teams but that's happening anyway but at least it's building a solid base from which to grow.

I've been saying since before the start of the season that the first thing Utd need to do is get their house in order, decide on what club they're going to be

i agree wholeheartedly. they need to start from scratch and stop with the stupid knee jerk reactions - like appointing OGS to a permanent position when they did. that is just symptomatic of a club who have no idea what they want to be or where they want to go.

all that said, you and i are sat (standing maybe?) here on a pc forum talking as if we know the inner machinations of the clubs we support. we are at best guessing and hoping that our respective clubs have got it right or will do so. perhaps Utd have made the perfect decision in OGS, perhaps he'll go on to be another Fergie. i doubt it but we'll have to wait and see.

what i will say though is that you scouse sods aren't allowed to win the league until UTD are competitive again. believe it or not i am probably one of the few man u fans who'd love to see us and livepuddle scrapping it out at the top of the table instead of these silly pretenders.
as Fergie famously said, squeaky bum time!

 

[BaZ87]

that would have been, for me, the preferable option.

Ok, well I'm not sure that was ever an option. You can't sit on your hands for months and then expect to be able to pick and choose your manager in June. Utd had to make a decision around the time they did because they were never going to be able to get a top class manager waiting until the end of the season - Zidane already went to Madrid and you weren't convincing Poch to leave Spurs in a 5 minute chat in June.

i will always 100% disagree with that, Man Utd will always be an attractive option for some damn good quality players. in the same way even when Liverpool couldn't kick the ground never mind a football they were still an attraction for some players.
yes, of course you will limit your pool of players. but at this moment in time a limited pool of players who want to play for the club would be preferable to current recruitment process.

If you're just comparing to the current recruitment process then I agree but Utd will be no better off in terms of performances, they'd have just spent less money. Football has moved on hugely over the last 20-30 years. 30 years ago sides were made up primarily of British players where playing for Utd or Liverpool was a big draw but squads are now being made up of players from every corner of the world and to a kid growing up in Senegal, the draw of playing for Utd is no greater than Bayern or Barca. If Utd want to compete with these clubs then they can't just compete with their name and wallet, they've got to be able to offer players the same opportunities as these sides can.

it only took years because as a club they were living in the past, fantasising about past glories and the powerhouse on the pitch they used to be instead of realising that while they were still a huge club and an attraction for many players their goals and aspirations needed to change until they got their ship in order. Utd and their fans are in the exact same situation. sentiment is clouding judgement. 'we used to win everything, we'll just spend money and keep winning'.....don't work like that unfortunately. they need to return to having a solid bedrock, a base on which the flair players can flourish. as i said in a previous post, at this moment in time Utd need a team of 'McTominay's' - young lads who will leave the contents of their guts on the pitch if needs be. Not pogba's or Sanchez's. sure they will get found out against the better teams but that's happening anyway but at least it's building a solid base from which to grow.

I think you maybe misunderstood me. I was talking about the previous 9 years since the club was taken over. From day 1 FSG have had a very clear plan on how they wanted the club to run in terms of a statistical approach to analysing players, a DoF type set-up with a head coach rather than manager. Where they struggled was putting the right people in place. Comolli went rouge and was sacked fairly soon, like Utd we backed ourself into a corner with Dalglish, who was never the manager for the set-up the club wanted and even with Rodgers it was a compromise - he was the coach the club wanted but didn't buy into the set-up.

i agree wholeheartedly. they need to start from scratch and stop with the stupid knee jerk reactions - like appointing OGS to a permanent position when they did. that is just symptomatic of a club who have no idea what they want to be or where they want to go.

all that said, you and i are sat (standing maybe?) here on a pc forum talking as if we know the inner machinations of the clubs we support. we are at best guessing and hoping that our respective clubs have got it right or will do so. perhaps Utd have made the perfect decision in OGS, perhaps he'll go on to be another Fergie. i doubt it but we'll have to wait and see.

what i will say though is that you scouse sods aren't allowed to win the league until UTD are competitive again. believe it or not i am probably one of the few man u fans who'd love to see us and livepuddle scrapping it out at the top of the table instead of these silly pretenders.
as Fergie famously said, squeaky bum time!

I'm sure I spoke about the risks at the time (and said the same re Hodgson and Liverpool) but sacking Mourinho when they did has put Utd in the position they are now. Utd were backed into a corner with Solskjaer - like Dalglish at Liverpool, as soon as he started well then you couldn't not give him the job. This is why Utd should have held their nerve with Mourinho, put the building blocks in place, planned where they want to go and how they want to get there, get the DoF in place if that's the route they're going down and then moved Mourinho on the moment the manager they wanted was available.

Who knows, maybe Utd have put a plan in place and Solksjaer is the man to implement that plan and they've got the right DoF to come in, I doubt it though. Utd are a reactive club now that are going to keep throwing **** at the wall until eventually something sticks but until they get their house in order it'll never last.

 

[Thekwango]

a kid growing up in Senegal, the draw of playing for Utd is no greater than Bayern or Barca

that is just wrong, i'm actually flabbergasted that someone so seemingly knowledgeable about football would utter such nonsense. as such i'm sorry but there's no point discussing further the attraction clubs like Utd and Liverpool can have for kids if you believe that. there has been and always will be footballers who grow up with a dream to play for 'their' club, be that Man U, Barca, or Liverpool etc. whether they succeed or not is irrelevant. astonishing thing to claim really.

I think you maybe misunderstood me. I was talking about the previous 9 years since the club was taken over.

you said it took years for Liverpool to get the people in place and i agreed with that, while giving my thoughts as to why. if you were talking solely since the take over by FSG then you should have stated that. Liverpool have been struggling for 30+ years (outside of cup wins/occasional league positions) to re-establish themselves as a consistent force in domestic football so i'm pretty sure it was natural to think you were talking about Liverpools long history of struggles since the heady days of the 70's and 80's.

I'm sure I spoke about the risks at the time (and said the same re Hodgson and Liverpool) but sacking Mourinho when they did has put Utd in the position they are now. Utd were backed into a corner with Solskjaer - like Dalglish at Liverpool, as soon as he started well then you couldn't not give him the job. This is why Utd should have held their nerve with Mourinho, put the building blocks in place, planned where they want to go and how they want to get there, get the DoF in place if that's the route they're going down and then moved Mourinho on the moment the manager they wanted was available.

no, the reason they are in the position they are now is because they employed him in the first place - he should never have been employed to begin with, a blind man in the streets could see what he was but what's done is done.

100% agree though that giving him the heave ho when they did and bringing in OGS had the potential to corral the club in the way it has.

Utd are a reactive club now that are going to keep throwing **** at the wall until eventually something sticks but until they get their house in order it'll never last.

again, in total agreement. they are a knee jerk club who seem to think their financial clout will buy them out of every situation. that's actually a perfectly normal view to have when the owners 'public face' is just a money man. which is why it is so important to get a 'football man' in to assist EW while leaving the manager to get on with the important job of looking after the team. i think the club have no option but to go the route of a DoF, long gone are the days of the manager being solely in charge (more or less) of transfers.

 

[BaZ87]

that is just wrong, i'm actually flabbergasted that someone so seemingly knowledgeable about football would utter such nonsense. as such i'm sorry but there's no point discussing further the attraction clubs like Utd and Liverpool can have for kids if you believe that. there has been and always will be footballers who grow up with a dream to play for 'their' club, be that Man U, Barca, or Liverpool etc. whether they succeed or not is irrelevant. astonishing thing to claim really.

I didn't realise Utd were the number 1 side in Senegal :/

You seem to have misunderstood again. I'm absolutely sure that a kid that grows up supporting Utd will want to play for Utd but this was the tiny pool of players I was talking about previously. As I said, 30 years ago when sides were made up almost exclusively of British players and a large percentage of those being local players who grew up in the City, supporting Utd, that wouldn't be a massive issue*. Things have changed though and clubs aren't made up of the best players in Manchester or even Britain as a whole but the best players from around the world. You cannot expect the best players in the world (who should be the players Utd want to sign) to be Utd supporters and even if they are, they're not likely to be die hard supporters that would join Utd over a rival if the opportunity for them at Utd isn't as good as what's on offer elsewhere.

*I do think we overestimate the value of playing for 'their side' though. Look at the amount of Everton supporting kids that turned Everton down for Liverpool. McManaman, Fowler, Carragher and Owen were all Everton supporters as kids, Carragher and his family really being die hard Evertonians. Carragher talked about in his book how even as a kid, he/his family felt it was better for him at Liverpool given the set-up at the club and academy facilities. With City's youth set-up now I think you're going to see a lot of Utd supporting kids choosing City over Utd too.

you said it took years for Liverpool to get the people in place and i agreed with that, while giving my thoughts as to why. if you were talking solely since the take over by FSG then you should have stated that. Liverpool have been struggling for 30+ years (outside of cup wins/occasional league positions) to re-establish themselves as a consistent force in domestic football so i'm pretty sure it was natural to think you were talking about Liverpools long history of struggles since the heady days of the 70's and 80's.

I didn't directly mention the time frame from when FSG took over but that's what I was getting at with that sentence coupled with the one directly before:

It's hard enough to get things right even when you know the direction the club want to go in.

As I said, since day 1 FSG have had a plan but implementing that plan hasn't been easy without the right people in place.

no, the reason they are in the position they are now is because they employed him in the first place - he should never have been employed to begin with, a blind man in the streets could see what he was but what's done is done.

I meant specifically the situation now with Solskjaer having been appointed and Utd still not having an idea where they're going. Regarding the general issues Utd face, that goes back to the day the Glazers took over. Utd as a club got complacent. Success for the Glazers is qualifying for the top 4 with the minimum outlay and that was relatively easy to begin with due to Utd's dominant position and the lack of competition. As everybody else has built or rebuilt, Utd stood still and suddenly the **** hit the fan when Moyes didn't end up being Fergie mrk-2. Since then Utd have just been firefighting, reacting to things as they happen. Mourinho being the ultimate example - the one manager I'm sure they didn't want being appointed because they thought he was the best short-term fix.

 

[Thekwango]

You seem to have misunderstood again.

i haven't misunderstood anything - you need to stop using that line, it isn't a get out jail free card when you say something silly. below is your statement again.

but squads are now being made up of players from every corner of the world and to a kid growing up in Senegal, the draw of playing for Utd is no greater than Bayern or Barca.

you've just claimed that for a kid growing up in senegal (i guess senegal is irrelevant as it could be any foreign country?) any team is much of a muchness? you've stated that right there in the quote so what is there to misunderstand? nothing to do with small pools of players. you've categorically stated that there is no draw for players anymore to a specific club. that is an utter nonsense and i'll be drawn no further in debating it with you.

I meant specifically the situation now with Solskjaer having been appointed and Utd still not having an idea where they're going. Regarding the general issues Utd face, that goes back to the day the Glazers took over. Utd as a club got complacent. Success for the Glazers is qualifying for the top 4 with the minimum outlay and that was relatively easy to begin with due to Utd's dominant position and the lack of competition. As everybody else has built or rebuilt, Utd stood still and suddenly the **** hit the fan when Moyes didn't end up being Fergie mrk-2. Since then Utd have just been firefighting, reacting to things as they happen. Mourinho being the ultimate example - the one manager I'm sure they didn't want being appointed because they thought he was the best short-term fix.

you really are an enigma aren't you. 1 minute it's utter toss your posting and trying to twist turn and deflect away from what you've actually said and the next it's a perfectly sensible assessment. Jesus I'd hate to be trying to have a yarn with you when you're have bladdered!
but quite right, the problems began when the Glazers took over, purely because the club were bought as an investment to help them service debts elsewhere. i will say though, that since the auld fella of the Glazers shuffled off this mortal coil the sons certainly have seemed to have had more of an interest in UTD as an actual club rather than a cash cow (even if they are still using at such) at least that's the impression i get.

the real issue is that as club UTD have never learned. they were faced with the same issues when Sir Matt retired. because he had been such a massive influence on the club and players it was almost impossible to replace him and those in charge of UTD when Fergies time was drawing to an end should have been aware of that and planning accordingly. Fergie for all the good and glory he brought united had no business being involved in picking his successor but that again highlighted how poorly run the club was. Rather than those whose job it was to prepare for his departure they instead turned to him for advice!! the man was retiring ffs. Ferige was probably the end of an era, the omnipowerful head of a footballing cartel who controls virtually every aspect of the playing side of business is a thing of the past and the club should have recognised that and made their plans accordingly, without sentiment and without SAF.

but they didn't and here they are today peeing into the wind and wondering why they keep getting the same taste of **** on their prawn sandwiches

 

[BaZ87]

i haven't misunderstood anything - you need to stop using that line, it isn't a get out jail free card when you say something silly. below is your statement again.

you've just claimed that for a kid growing up in senegal (i guess senegal is irrelevant as it could be any foreign country?) any team is much of a muchness? you've stated that right there in the quote so what is there to misunderstand? nothing to do with small pools of players. you've categorically stated that there is no draw for players anymore to a specific club. that is an utter nonsense and i'll be drawn no further in debating it with you.

I can't be held responsible for your lack of understanding. I thought the point I was making was quite clear but evidently you need everything spelling out for you and walked through stage by stage. I used Senegal as a completely random example - you're not likely to have hardcore Utd supporters there. To a player from Senegal, they're not likely to have any loyalty to Utd and will not join Utd over any other historically big club without good reason to do so. It's really not that difficult to understand.

And to be crystal clear, so you don't misunderstand again, the tiny pool of players aren't the best players in the world that I'm referring to in the example above but the pool of players that will want to join Utd because it's Utd. The die hard Utd supporters that would rather play Rugby than play for Man City, the @ThestigGT999's of the world.

you really are an enigma aren't you. 1 minute it's utter toss your posting and trying to twist turn and deflect away....

Christ, this is proving as difficult as when I closed the Messi thread. As above, I can't be held responsible for you not understanding things. What on earth do I have to twist, turn and deflect away from? It's like your wild conspiracy theories why that thread got closed

I clearly refer to the exact situation Utd find themselves in now, hence why I use the word now in the quote below If you can't understand that don't blame me and when I very politely point out that you've misunderstood, don't get all touchy about it.

...but sacking Mourinho when they did has put Utd in the position they are now.

 

[Thekwango]

ahh i thought i recognised your account name, assumed it was from browsing the footie threads recently. how wrong was i.

I can't be held responsible for your lack of understanding.

of course you can. when you say one thing but mean something else that's on you. that's not really difficult to understand, surely, even for you?

What on earth do I have to twist, turn and deflect away from?

because you stated that one club is as good as another to a foreign player, although you used Senegal as an example I knew that it was just a place holder for any foreign country, as you've confirmed. now you're waffling on trying to redirect and deflect from what you posted by saying i don't understand. you said, clearly, that foreign players in this day and age do not have any affiliation, love or attachment to any famous football club (you didn't use those words but that is what your post said. i've told you that is nonsense. are you now saying that isn't what you said or meant? i can quote your post again if it helps you out a bit?

It's like your wild conspiracy theories why that thread got closed

i assumed those FCD discussions were private and confidential but it's cool to know that is not the case as you're happy to openly discuss them then please quote which wild conspiracy theories i posted when i questioned your actions. you want to publicly question my sanity or intelligence by mentioning snippets from a private conversation then that's fine but post them now for all to see (btw before you attempt to somehow twist this as me being touchy/snow flakey or whatever, when you state someone is prone to wild conspiracy theories you are directly questioning their sanity/intelligence, now i've no issue with you doing that but quote in full to back your claim up). i don't want any nonsense about rules, you've made it clear the content of that discussion is open for public conversation by talking about it so make sure your reply contains them and in full.

If you can't understand that don't blame me and when I very politely point out that you've misunderstood, don't get all touchy about it.

why do you think i am getting all touchy about it. there is absolutely nothing you could do or say that would cause me to get all touchy. your daft, failed attempts at threats and insults didn't perturb me, why would you waffling on now suddenly cause me to get upset or touchy?! i was making light as best as i could about the senegal 'incident' and yet you've gone all 'grrr you is stoopid you no understand, not my fault all yours'.....you sure it's not you getting all touchy about it fella, certainly feels that way. maybe have a think if being a moderator on a huge public forum is for you if you can't have a debate without getting all knicker twisted about it.

 

[BaZ87]

cahh i thought i recognised your account name, assumed it was from browsing the footie threads recently. how wrong was i.

of course you can. when you say one thing but mean something else that's on you. that's not really difficult to understand, surely, even for you?


because you stated that one club is as good as another to a foreign player, although you used Senegal as an example I knew that it was just a place holder for any foreign country, as you've confirmed. now you're waffling on trying to redirect and deflect from what you posted by saying i don't understand. you said, clearly, that foreign players in this day and age do not have any affiliation, love or attachment to any famous football club (you didn't use those words but that is what your post said. i've told you that is nonsense. are you now saying that isn't what you said or meant? i can quote your post again if it helps you out a bit?

I'll say it again, it's not my fault you can't understand basic things. I will spell it out for you and go through step by step to stop this going round in circles though.

1. You state you want a team of players that want to play for Utd
2. I point out that those days are over or at least restricts you to just a small pool of players that aren't going to be good enough for Utd to compete. I go on to talk about competing with the best clubs for the best players and how all Utd have to offer right now is money.
   
3. You then disagree with that and say Utd are still an attractive option for quality players and how working with a small pool of players is better than the situation now.
4. I then said that you'd be no better off with your method from a football point of view but would save money. I then go on to explain the way football has changed and use the example of 30 years ago when football wasn't quite the globalised game it is today. Building a squad with 'players that want to play for Utd' back then was easier when you were dealing with mainly British and local players. Football today is a global game and squads are being built from the best players across the world - I used a random country as an example of players that won't have any loyalty to Utd and how Utd have to offer them something other than just being Utd.

This is where you've got confused. You've wrongly assumed I was stating that foreign supporters of Man Utd don't have loyalty to Utd or don't support anybody when the point I was actually making is that they're just not likely to be Utd supporters at all. This would have been far easier had you accepted that you misunderstood my post or even said that I didn't explain myself well enough, instead we've gone roudn in circles.

i assumed those FCD discussions were private and confidential but it's cool to know that is not the case as you're happy to openly discuss them then please quote which wild conspiracy theories i posted when i questioned your actions. you want to publicly question my sanity or intelligence by mentioning snippets from a private conversation then that's fine but post them now for all to see (btw before you attempt to somehow twist this as me being touchy/snow flakey or whatever, when you state someone is prone to wild conspiracy theories you are directly questioning their sanity/intelligence, now i've no issue with you doing that but quote in full to back your claim up). i don't want any nonsense about rules, you've made it clear the content of that discussion is open for public conversation by talking about it so make sure your reply contains them and in full.


why do you think i am getting all touchy about it. there is absolutely nothing you could do or say that would cause me to get all touchy. your daft, failed attempts at threats and insults didn't perturb me, why would you waffling on now suddenly cause me to get upset or touchy?! i was making light as best as i could about the senegal 'incident' and yet you've gone all 'grrr you is stoopid you no understand, not my fault all yours'.....you sure it's not you getting all touchy about it fella, certainly feels that way. maybe have a think if being a moderator on a huge public forum is for you if you can't have a debate without getting all knicker twisted about it.

I don't think I've questioned your sanity. I've commented on how difficult it is to debate with you when rather than accept you were wrong or simply misunderstood something you dig and dig. And if you were happy for me to I would quote your conspiracy theories but for some unknown reason you wouldn't actually detail what they were, you just kept saying there was some dishonest reason as to why that thread was closed. It was almost as if you couldn't just accept there was a perfectly logical reason why the thread was closed and had to keep arguing for the sake of it.

As for threats, insults and me getting touchy. This is surely a joke? I was debating perfecly politely and reasonably with you. If you read back you'll find that everytime you've misunderstood something or I've disagreed with you, you've resorted to petty comments. I admire the cheek on you to accuse me of being touchy though. It's like a 5 year old saying "I'm not crying, you are"

Anyway, we're no longer discussing the topic at hand so I think we'll leave it there. If you wish to discuss the original topic further then please feel free to do so. As I've touched on already though, I think you're incredibly naive to believe that a football club can successfully recruit and retain players without having a manager or announcing that manager and if you believe that Utd should build a squad of players that just want to play for Utd and or a team of Scott McTominay's then as a Liverpool fan I can only say that I really hope this happens. Utd will finish 7th next season and get knocked out of the Europa League by Sporting Lisbon.

 

[Trusty]

that is just wrong, i'm actually flabbergasted that someone so seemingly knowledgeable about football would utter such nonsense. as such i'm sorry but there's no point discussing further the attraction clubs like Utd and Liverpool can have for kids if you believe that. there has been and always will be footballers who grow up with a dream to play for 'their' club, be that Man U, Barca, or Liverpool etc. whether they succeed or not is irrelevant. astonishing thing to claim really.

There will be young kids around the globe that want to play for specific clubs, but it will be a shallow want/need. What comes above that? What goes deeper into the psyche of a player? They want to win stuff, whether that be a league title, European trophy or world cup. When a kid dreaming of playing for a big club gets that opportunity, they will most likely choose the club with the best chance of winning stuff. UTD's pull of being a big club in the past does not override the current environment for the top players. You'll pick players up that turn into top players, you might even get a top player to join, but overall, generally speaking, the majority of top players with options will opt for the club with the best chance of winning stuff. That isn't UTD at the moment, maybe in 4/5 years time, you'll be in that position.

 

[Robbo]

We don't really want these big players joining, we need to build something using players just below that top level. The big players have done nothing for us.

 

[BaZ87]

Utd need to forget about signing names and focus on young, hungry players on the fringes of becoming a top player, similar to what we done with the likes of Mane, Wijnaldum and Salah. We had a near free run at these players while Utd were chasing big names.

 

[Trusty]

We don't really want these big players joining, we need to build something using players just below that top level. The big players have done nothing for us.

Im not sure i agree with a lot of United fans assessment that you need a complete overhaul of the squad. You've still got some decent players in there but the mentality isnt there at the moment. You still dont have a proper winger at the club, which is incredible considering the heritage of wingers at the club, you need a CB and a CM as well. Pogba needs to go, Pogba getting a Rolls Royce back from a game instead of getting on the team bus is absolutely mental, just shows he's not in the trenches with the other players, it was after the Burnley defeat i think. I still think there is a good player in Sanchez but he can see the team is not close to winning stuff, it's obviously annoying him.

UTD should try and poach that Tielemans off Leicester.

 

[Alex h]

We need a right back and 2 cb plus cm midfielder maybe 2 and a right winger at bare minimum and pogba needs to go i think hes sharing a negative effect on team

 

[Thekwango]

snippity snip snip

tell you what, lets roll back and keep it simple. to start, most of your posts/points I am in agreement with - cool?

my single issue with the current debate is simply your claim that foreign players wont have a want or desire to play for man u over any other particular club. I don't agree with that. I agree that those players will be in a relatively small number (and while the company continues to act like a bunch of plebs that number will likely be getting damn smaller damn quickly) but without a doubt there will be players all over the world, good bad or indifferent, who would give their left nut to play for united, in the same way there are players all over the world who would sell their 1st born child to play for Liverpool, Real, Barca. there are very few teams in the world who have that level of fanatical support from fans and players alike - UTD, Liverpool, Barca, Real to name but a few are lucky to have that type of support. but it seems, at least to me, that you steadfastly refuse to accept that is what you said.

forget all the other issues, lets just focus on that as that is the crux of the issue. when you said 'but squads are now being made up of players from every corner of the world and to a kid growing up in Senegal, the draw of playing for Utd is no greater than Bayern or Barca' is that not what you meant by that? that to me is a clear statement that all clubs are equal to players the world over. for what it's worth I have asked a few people to have a look at the quote above and explain to me what they take from it as I accept that on the internet things can get lost in translation and without a doubt could be misunderstood but every one of them agreed that it seemed to agree that they read it as you saying all clubs are more or less equal - granted they could have just been agreeing with me cause they were sat beside me but agreed they did. well apart from one who i'm guessing is a bit touched as he didn't seem to understand it all! he'll likely arrive into work tomorrow with a eureka moment

if you believe that Utd should build a squad of players that just want to play for Utd and or a team of Scott McTominay's then as a Liverpool fan I can only say that I really hope this happens. Utd will finish 7th next season and get knocked out of the Europa League by Sporting Lisbon.

on this point, I actually would accept that because at the moment the club, at least on the pitch never mind 'higher up', need to start from scratch and build a base of players who are there to play for the club. get that solid foundation then build from there. add your superstars to that. the club can't keep just keep throwing money at players expecting it all to work. I don't expect too many other man u fans to be of the same opinion and the board certainly won't but they need to start fresh from somewhere. the energy, fight and hard work that has been part of the united ethos for years has to be brought back.

Utd need to forget about signing names and focus on young, hungry players on the fringes of becoming a top player,

and that is exactly what I meant by my 'we need mctominays' post!!! god dammit we just agreed on something, we'll be going for pints and touchy feely time at this rate

It's like a 5 year old saying "I'm not crying, you are"

ah the irony

We don't really want these big players joining, we need to build something using players just below that top level. The big players have done nothing for us.

exactly. we need players who want play for the club. the 'superstars' have and continue to let the club down.

 

[BaZ87]

I agree with everything you say @Thekwango.

 

[Thekwango]

I agree with everything you say @Thekwango.

Ah well. I tried. Cheers anyway fella.

 

[ChrisD.]

Utd need to forget about signing names and focus on young, hungry players on the fringes of becoming a top player, similar to what we done with the likes of Mane, Wijnaldum and Salah. We had a near free run at these players while Utd were chasing big names.

Totally agree with this. Pogba, Sanchez and Lukaku need to go. As for the rest of the team, Young is a squad player at best, Jones is far too inconsistent and Smalling can be a liability at times, Mata while technically brilliant is simply too slow, Matic is past it etc. I think we would do well to keep hold of Rashford but there's rumours he's off and he's a through and through manc.

 

[placeholder]

So I can’t help but wonder...

The players do appear to be a bunch of childish, lazy, useless muppets who won’t fight for the club.

And Ed Woodward seems genuinely useless.

It’s no wonder Mourinho was extra miserable...

The players are a disgrace and Id be happy to see any of them sold. I don't see how Woodward has been shown to be "useless" but that's another argument.

Liverpool have built a scenario that is similar to us in our prime. Good players but not the absolute crazy money signings - each one made better since he came to the club, coupled with decent squad players who know their place and an overall work ethic and decent football style. If nothing else it shows that its still relevant today as it was under Fergie even in the face of crazy money being spent. That's what we need to get back to.