The muslims are at it again

[Sleepy]

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html

From a previous post of mine on this verse

4:34 is one of the infamous passages in the qu'ran. However lets just look at two sections from the verse. First "qawwamuna 'ala an-nisa" which can be understood as:

• watch over
• protect
• support
• attend to
• look after
• be in charge of

The second is the word "adribuhnna" which can be translated as:

• beat them
• turn away from them
• go along with them

and most remarkably:

• have consensual intercourse with them

In other words a literal translation of this verse could be read as

"Men are in charge of women ... As to those women on whose part you fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly). . ." (Yusif Ali)

or

"Men are the support of women ... As for women you feel are averse, talk to them suasively; then leave them alone in bed (without molesting them) and go to bed with them (when they are willing)" (Ahmed Ali)

This isn't a translation issue the variability of interpretation of the text is in the original Arabic. In fact that verse can be understood in a variety of ways. The problem is which is the correct one.

So actually what it means depends on ones interpretation. Me I think a wise and benevolent god might have considered making his holy book a little less obtuse as to its actual meaning.

 

[VIRII]

Or perhaps we should all believe that your sense of morals is the only way, while all others are wrong?

Isn't that what Islam does?
I asked you what you meant by "would you LET your daughter marry......"
Again you demonstrate your attitude to women.
You did not ask "how would you feel about it if your daughter wanted to marry....." You posted the definition of "feel" so you clearly *feel* that you understand the word and all its nuances.
But instead you chose to ask if i would "LET" my daughter marry a given person as though as her father I have some right to stop her or decide for her.
Islam truly teaching men to respect women......

You demonstrate intolerance to homsoexuals, you demonstrate an attitude towards women that is far from enlightened. Tell me is this because you are muslim or is it cultural? Either way it is not acceptable in this country in this day and age.

 

[Raz]

He is avoiding answering difficult questions about islamic attitudes to homosexuals and wife beating and whether muslims are still muslims if they do not obey and believe in the teachings of the Koran or whether they can obey the koran whilst "feeling" that the things they are doing aren't right.... which begs the question "if you don't feel it is the right thing to do then why do you do it or believe it?"

How am I avoiding? I answered CBS's questions, what did I miss? I honestly don't understand what you're getting at?

A muslim doesn't HAVE to beat his wife does he (see Sleepy's post...)? Yet he HAS to fast (example). They're two completely different things.

 

[Raz]

Isn't that what Islam does?
I asked you what you meant by "would you LET your daughter marry......"
Again you demonstrate your attitude to women.
You did not ask "how would you feel about it if your daughter wanted to marry....." You posted the definition of "feel" so you clearly *feel* that you understand the word and all its nuances.
But instead you chose to ask if i would "LET" my daughter marry a given person as though as her father I have some right to stop her or decide for her.
Islam truly teaching men to respect women......

You demonstrate intolerance to homsoexuals, you demonstrate an attitude towards women that is far from enlightened. Tell me is this because you are muslim or is it cultural? Either way it is not acceptable in this country in this day and age.

If any others have got questions, or didn't understand what i meant/said feel free to ask.

I'm not going to bother with him anymore

 

[VIRII]

How am I avoiding? I answered CBS's questions, what did I miss? I honestly don't understand what you're getting at?

A muslim doesn't HAVE to beat his wife does he (see Sleepy's post...)? Yet he HAS to fast. They're two completely different things.

On this page alone you ignored the questions in posts 602, 603, 611 among others.
CBS question related to beating women, you replied about stoning

3 scholars of Islam have claimed that Mohammeds instruction to "men" was to beat their wives if they disobeyed them. Seems like a direct instruction from mohammed. Is it up to you to pick and choose which bits of Islam you feel like following? Or does Islam tell you exactly what to do in any given situation?
Will you do as mohammed told you and beat your wife if she disobeys you? If not then why not?

 

[Raz]

What's that got to do with anything?

I was trying to be pedantic like him, that we all feel different things so therefore I cannot speak for all Muslims. I can say what they should do/not do according to the Quran and Prophet's teachings, but that's about it.

 

[VIRII]

If any others have got questions, or didn't understand what i meant/said feel free to ask.

I'm not going to bother with him anymore

Yeah you always clam up and refuse to answer when the questions get to the nitty gritty don't you. Rather than give a straight answer to a straight question you just ignore it.

What's the matter, ashamed of your faith and it's associated attitudes and culture? Ashamed to admit the way you are to women and homosexuals?

 

[VIRII]

I was trying to be pedantic like him, that we all feel different things so therefore I cannot speak for all Muslims. I can say what they should do/not do according to the Quran and Prophet's teachings, but that's about it.

If you should do something because of your book then surely you should agree with what you are doing. If you are agreeing with it then surely you feel you should do it and it becomes obvious how you should feel regarding a given subject because the book tells you what is right and what is wrong.
Therefore as you follow the same beliefs and ideology they way you feel should be similar should it not. Or do you do things that don't feel right?

 

[Sleepy]

You demonstrate intolerance to homsoexuals, you demonstrate an attitude towards women that is far from enlightened. Tell me is this because you are muslim or is it cultural? Either way it is not acceptable in this country in this day and age.

Yet homosexuality is not an accepted lifestyle, it is tolerated and is no longer illegal but accepted by all it isn't. Afterall the christian church [of whatever flavour] condemns the practise of homosexuality, and does not support the complete acceptance of equal rights.

Now why is that 'cultural' bias different from that of Islams?

 

[cleanbluesky]

Now why is that 'cultural' bias different from that of Islam?

We dont kill them for bum love

 

[VIRII]

Yet homosexuality is not an accepted lifestyle, it is tolerated and is no longer illegal but accepted by all it isn't. Afterall the christian church [of whatever flavour] condemns the practise of homosexuality, and does not support the complete acceptance of equal rights.

Now why is that 'cultural' bias different from that of Islams?

Because the culture here is progressive and does change.
I have no love for any religion but at least Christians don't want homosexuals stoned to death.
My statement was that the attitude is not acceptable in this country in this day and age and it is not. Indeed it is even illegal to discriminate against homosexuals or to incite hatred of them.

 

[Sleepy]

We dont kill them for bum love

Except that is not completely true though is it as a a quick search will show. And lets not forget the BNP which wishes to recriminalise homosexualty, ironic given the Griffith 4 year affair with another man.

 

[Sleepy]

I have no love for any religion but at least Christians don't want homosexuals stoned to death.

Somedo, some want them killed as per levicitus 20:13 though the method is left to others to decide, stoning is acceptable to god.

 

[cleanbluesky]

Except that is not completely true though is it as a a quick search will show. And lets not forget the BNP which wishes to recriminalise homosexualty, ironic given the Griffith 4 year affair with another man.

Is it not true that we dont kill them or that they dont kill them?

 

[Sleepy]

Is it not true that we dont kill them or that they dont kill them?

Its not true that they aren't killed cos of their sexuality such as this case or the Soho pub bombing.

 

[cleanbluesky]

Its not true that they aren't killed cos of their sexuality such as this case or the Soho pub bombing.

Surely you can do better than that if you are to play devils advocate...

 

[VIRII]

Somedo, some want them killed as per levicitus 20:13 though the method is left to others to decide, stoning is acceptable to god.

Some? But not an entire religion and allegedly the fastest growing one at that?
Does your average normal Brit want gays people stoned to death?
I think not.

 

[SexyGreyFox]

ironic given the Griffith 4 year affair with another man.

Totally denied.

Webster re-emerged in 1999 to claim that he had been involved in a gay relationship with Nick Griffin during the 1970s, apparently an intervention in Griffin's attempts to wrest leadership of the British National Party from Tyndall. Webster's efforts proved unsuccessful and he has yet to return on the political scene

 

[Sleepy]

Surely you can do better than that if you are to play devils advocate...

The argument put forward was that our enlightened culture was better than Islams in its attitude to homosexuality. I indicated that its not a universal part of our culture. Some Christians oppose acceptence as do a certain right wing party even though its leader enjoys 'bum love' as you so eloquently put it. The forms of unacceptance range from verbal to aggression to violence to psychopathy.

So given these 'extremist' elements in our society, roundly condemned by our leaders, just how are we better than Islam on this issue?

 

[VIRII]

The argument put forward was that our enlightened culture was better than Islams in its attitude to homosexuality. I indicated that its not a universal part of our culture. Some Christians oppose acceptence as do a certain right wing party even though its leader enjoys 'bum love' as you so eloquently put it. The forms of unacceptance range from verbal to aggression to violence to psychopathy.

So given these 'extremist' elements in our society, roundly condemned by our leaders, just how are we better than Islam on this issue?

Because the vast majority of our culture will not and do not want homosexuals harmed, nor do they find them an insult to God.
Indeed our culture has celebrated homosexuals for a long time, examples being Oscar Wilde and Kenneth Williams, more recently Julian Clary and so on.
Our culture is better because we are more tolerant of homosexuals and do not promote or condone or excuse harming people.
Please tell me which muslim countries would allow Julian Clary....