The muslims are at it again

[Rich_L]

Really? It is not an attempt to besmirch you. It merely highlights how far you are prepared to go in order to be "liberal" and PC.
Do you have a moral objection to a son sleeping with his mother if both consent? Well do you.......

As you are well aware, I've answered that question, IIRC it was about 3-4 paragraphs, included several caveats and was essentially a thought-experiment on the relationship between the law, consent and society and examined several 'illogical' laws which, if logic prevails should not exist - one of which was the law prohibiting incest. As it happens you'll find it very unlikely I proclaimed a personal opinion either way but was advocating an entirely logical position to provoke debate.

Clearly it was a discussion which went waay over your head, as your complete and utter misinterpretation of my position sadly reveals.

 

[Raz]

Really? It is not an attempt to besmirch you. It merely highlights how far you are prepared to go in order to be "liberal" and PC.
Do you have a moral objection to a son sleeping with his mother if both consent? Well do you.......

can I ask, what was the background to him saying that?

 

[SexyGreyFox]

Clearly it was a discussion which went waay over your head, as your complete and utter misinterpretation of my position sadly reveals.

Theres no doubt all that psychology stuff would go over my head because I'm thick but what I want to know is -
Do you think its alright for a son to have sex with his mother if they both consent?

 

[sunama]

So what you are sayingis that ElRazur would be murdered for burning a book in the UK and we have nothing to worry about from Islam?

His life would be in danger if it went up on YouTube and his identity were found out. There are some nutters out there who take their religeon very very seriously. There are even some people who tie bombs to their bodies and blow themselves AND their targets up by the push of a single button.

If they killed El Razur after he burned the Quran they would probably think that they would be guarenteed a top berth in paradise.

 

[starscream]

Theres no doubt all that psychology stuff would go over my head because I'm thick but what I want to know is -
Do you think its alright for a son to have sex with his mother if they both consent?

It would depend on your definition of "Alright". I don't recall the thread, but I would imagine the argument is along the lines that if no other parties would be harmed (Probably meaning that conception was impossible), should the state intervene into consensual acts between adults. It was probably a tangent thrown in from someone on a debate about homosexuality.

 

[trojan698]

Theres no doubt all that psychology stuff would go over my head because I'm thick but what I want to know is -
Do you think its alright for a son to have sex with his mother if they both consent?

It was no doubt a purely hypothetical discussion with the moral standpoint being wholly irrelevant.

 

[VIRII]

can I ask, what was the background to him saying that?

IIRC it was a thread about attitudes to gay adoption and sex in general.
The statement was that there was nothing wrong with sex between two consenting adults.
When I asked RichL if this meant that there was nothing wrong with sex between consenting adults if they were related he said "yes".
When pressed if that meant that should he and his mother want to have sex with eachother that he thought they should be allowed he said "yes".

There was no "well thought out long winded post" whatsoever.

The question was simply should a son and mother be allowed to have sex with eachother if they both wanted to.

My position was that such unions could result in pretty deformed children and genetic issues such as those seen amongst the Egyptian Pharoes who could only marry their relatives (gods can only marry gods you see in their culture).
Cleopatra married her brother, murdered him too.

So RichL - In simple language do you think that (assuming no children could be conceived) it is morally OK for you to have sex with your mother if you both wanted to and consented to?

It looks like a bit of a yes or no response to me, but see what you can do lover boy

 

[VIRII]

His life would be in danger if it went up on YouTube and his identity were found out. There are some nutters out there who take their religeon very very seriously. There are even some people who tie bombs to their bodies and blow themselves AND their targets up by the push of a single button.

If they killed El Razur after he burned the Quran they would probably think that they would be guarenteed a top berth in paradise.

So we do have something to fear from Islam then? The barbaric nutters who'll kill over a book or cartoon. Yes?

 

[VIRII]

It was no doubt a purely hypothetical discussion with the moral standpoint being wholly irrelevant.

Morals are wholly irrelevent? Since when? Aren't entire cultures and rules of law founded on morals?
In discussing morals we discuss where to draw the line. Even with free speech there are lines to be drawn. Freedom brings responsibility, we are guided by morality. So morals are never irrelevent.

 

[Raz]

IIRC it was a thread about attitudes to gay adoption and sex in general.
The statement was that there was nothing wrong with sex between two consenting adults.
When I asked RichL if this meant that there was nothing wrong with sex between consenting adults if they were related he said "yes".
When pressed if that meant that should he and his mother want to have sex with eachother that he thought they should be allowed he said "yes".

There was no "well thought out long winded post" whatsoever.

The question was simply should a son and mother be allowed to have sex with eachother if they both wanted to.

My position was that such unions could result in pretty deformed children and genetic issues such as those seen amongst the Egyptian Pharoes who could only marry their relatives (gods can only marry gods you see in their culture).
Cleopatra married her brother, murdered him too.

So RichL - In simple language do you think that (assuming no children could be conceived) it is morally OK for you to have sex with your mother if you both wanted to and consented to?

It looks like a bit of a yes or no response to me, but see what you can do lover boy

So basically what you are saying is that you're intolerant of people who have sex with their own mothers? Assuming we're taking the moral high ground - that's something you use against Islam - intolerance towards gays - by using your own logic even though no children would be born, and it was consenting you'd find it wrong on what basis?

People who think homosexuality is immoral - intolerant.
People who think incest is ok - immoral
People who think homosexuality is ok but incest isn't - this is the right way.

So those who disagree with you are intolerant, those who apply your logic to incest and therefore accept it could be seen to be ok are immoral.

ok.

 

[Raz]

Morals are wholly irrelevent? Since when? Aren't entire cultures and rules of law founded on morals?
In discussing morals we discuss where to draw the line. Even with free speech there are lines to be drawn. Freedom brings responsibility, we are guided by morality. So morals are never irrelevent.

ok morals that seem to agree with yours.

You say that:
People who find homosexuality immoral are intolerant.
People who find incest acceptable in the same way they find homosexuality acceptable are immoral.

 

[cleanbluesky]

Have you ever disagreed with him?

He's got something against 'my people' ...

 

[cleanbluesky]

We've not had an epic argument that I recall?

Yeah, but then again we have very similar posting styles and linguistic skills, hence our arguments are usually much more subtle...

you and CBS are possibly - allegedly - the two most argumentative and combative posters on here

I don't think anyone would ever say that about me. I bring sunbeans and kittens into each and every thread to which I attach my name

 

[cleanbluesky]

He said himself that his friend isn't that good a Muslim. There's plenty of Muslims who are so by name and nothing else. So yes, there is a difference in having friends who aren't practising and assuming that practising Muslims are all out to get him.

So he's 'not Muslim' enough for you to include him?

I don't think you get to decide who is or isn't Muslim.

 

[VIRII]

So basically what you are saying is that you're intolerant of people who have sex with their own mothers? Assuming we're taking the moral high ground - that's something you use against Islam - intolerance towards gays - by using your own logic even though no children would be born, and it was consenting you'd find it wrong on what basis?

People who think homosexuality is immoral - intolerant.
People who think incest is ok - immoral
People who think homosexuality is ok but incest isn't - this is the right way.

So those who disagree with you are intolerant, those who apply your logic to incest and therefore accept it could be seen to be ok are immoral.

ok.

LOL. Nope Nice try but oh so wrong.
Let me refresh your memory, from the post YOU quoted that I posted...

My position was that such unions could result in pretty deformed children and genetic issues such as those seen amongst the Egyptian Pharoes who could only marry their relatives (gods can only marry gods you see in their culture).
Cleopatra married her brother, murdered him too.

You DO seem to get confused awfully easily don't you...
My only objection to incest is that it could result in damaged children, it is not for me but if 2 adults want to then why not? Other than the children issue what is actually wrong with it? Can you tell me......

The same applies for homosexuality. Not my thing but if 2 consenting adults want to then fine. It causes no harm to anyone. Can you tell me what is wrong with it........

How about you Raz, how tolerant are you....

 

[cleanbluesky]

Lets cut to the chase here - would the two most outspoken Islamists in this thread please tell us where they stand on the following issues...

@if and Raz please explain how you feel about the following...

1) Physical punishment directed towards your better half for disobedience, possibly including beating with an object/weapon

2) Cruel and unusual executions of homosexuals because they are homosexuals

Also, if you'd like to discuss things from the 'all Muslims perspective' why not tell us how ALL MUSLIMS should feel about these two things...

 

[VIRII]

So he's 'not Muslim' enough for you to include him?

I don't think you get to decide who is or isn't Muslim.

I wonder if I should behead him for turning from Islam .....

 

[VIRII]

I don't think anyone would ever say that about me. I bring sunbeans and kittens into each and every thread to which I attach my name

Combative posters? I think we should take him round the back and teach him a lesson grrrr lol.

 

[Raz]

So he's 'not Muslim' enough for you to include him?

I don't think you get to decide who is or isn't Muslim.

There is a girl I know, who is muslim by name, yet doesn't pray, fast, or actually believe in God. But because of her family background people assume she is Muslim. She is not. If someone spat on the Quran it wouldn't bother her while it would offend or at least bother a Muslim.

But if she was VIRII's friend, it cannot be said that he is friends with a muslim.

 

[Raz]

Lets cut to the chase here - would the two most outspoken Islamists in this thread please tell us where they stand on the following issues...

@if and Raz please explain how you feel about the following...

1) Physical punishment directed towards your better half for disobedience, possibly including beating with an object/weapon

2) Cruel and unusual executions of homosexuals because they are homosexuals

Also, if you'd like to discuss things from the 'all Muslims perspective' why not tell us how ALL MUSLIMS should feel about these two things...

1. Disagree with it.
2. Homosexuality, under certain Islamic laws, can be punishable by death. If you are living in a muslim country then logically the law of the land would apply. Naturally it's a innocent until proven guilty process. I personally think death is a bit extreme, but I am not a jurist nor a judge.

I'd love to tell you that but how do I know what or how other Muslims should feel? Do you know what all pagans feel about different things?