The "New Gear/Willy Waving" thread

Raymond Lin said:
I'd love one but why can't they make it auto focus ?! :(
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I read a reply to a letter that was sent to Zeiss asking that and the response was:

Carl Zeiss has a lot of experience designing auto focus lenses for the Contax and Sony systems. This requires a close working relationship with the camera company and permission to interface with their electronics and AF systems. To date, we have not had permission to offer this feature with our ZF lens series.

Sincerely,
Richard Schleuning
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I suppose it is wise of Nikon not to offer their competitors a slice of their business, although I wish they would reconsider.
 
That's not strictly true.

Sigma and Tamron don't either but they reverse engineer their lenses to suit. It's always been that way and there doesn't seem to be any law suits flying around that I can see. The only down side is when there is a new body come along your old lens won't work on it and it needs sending back to get it flashed with the new firmware. Sigma has now even removed this obstacle with their USB dock.

I personally think Zeiss are just lazy to figure it out, where Contax and Sony let them have their blueprints for their AF because the Zeiss name BENEFITS their brand. Whereas having a Zeiss AF lens on Canon and Nikon mount would seem as harmful to the sales of their own line of lenses.
 
I'd agree it's a cop out.
I could send my Contax CZ lenses to a company in Canada and have the mount removed and a Canon one fitted, it then will be fully functional with AF on a Canon body.
So if a little independent company of a couple of people can reverse engineer it I'm sure Zeiss could if they wanted.

What would have been great is if Sony had bought the rights to use the old Contax N or 645 mount, then it would have given them a bunch of customers with lenses looking for a modern body, a way into Medium format and platform to develop new items.
I can dream though of such fortune...
 
Raymond Lin said:
That's not strictly true.

Sigma and Tamron don't either but they reverse engineer their lenses to suit. It's always been that way and there doesn't seem to be any law suits flying around that I can see. The only down side is when there is a new body come along your old lens won't work on it and it needs sending back to get it flashed with the new firmware. Sigma has now even removed this obstacle with their USB dock.

I personally think Zeiss are just lazy to figure it out, where Contax and Sony let them have their blueprints for their AF because the Zeiss name BENEFITS their brand. Whereas having a Zeiss AF lens on Canon and Nikon mount would seem as harmful to the sales of their own line of lenses.
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I wouldn't want to pay Zeiss money for Tamron reverse engineered autofocus. Some of the most common problems on third party lenses are focus issues. The way it is now you will still be able to use the Zeiss manual lenses in 20 years. I did read the older Nikon screw drive patent is finished now so Zeiss could use that, but again if you are asking a premium for your product do you want old technology?

I think it's all about Nikon and Canon circling the wagons as imagine a Zeiss 24-70 f/2.8 maybe with IS/VR, it would kill Canon and Nikon's top sellers. Their partners at Sony might have something to say about it as well.
 
But to pay all that money and not have AF, their only reason is lack of permission? I don't buy it, if they want to, they will and I bet they can.

Everyone else seems to be able to do it...to say they can't smells like a lie. I'm not saying using tamron auto focus on a zeiss, I'm saying they can reverse engineer it themselves. They are smart enough to make the sharpest prime lens in the world, I'm sure they are smart enough to figure an auto focus system that was designed back in the 80's.

A zeiss AF lens on canon mount surely will hurt Canon sales, but what's zeiss' problem with that? They get more money....it's a win win for them. The problem for zeiss is that they will sell it twice the amount canon will charge but in that regard it's nothing new either.

It's a lot more than lack of permission from canon/Nikon, it's probably more closes with your theory that there may be anti competition clause in their agreement not to release AF lenses for the bigger players. I bet zeiss wants to! why? Because it is a HUGE market of user base and it would make them a lot of money. It's silly to see that cow there and you can't milk.
 
Raymond Lin said:
But to pay all that money and not have AF, their only reason is lack of permission? I don't buy it, if they want to, they will and I bet they can.

Everyone else seems to be able to do it...to say they can't smells like a lie. I'm not saying using tamron auto focus on a zeiss, I'm saying they can reverse engineer it themselves. They are smart enough to make the sharpest prime lens in the world, I'm sure they are smart enough to figure an auto focus system that was designed back in the 80's.

A zeiss AF lens on canon mount surely will hurt Canon sales, but what's zeiss' problem with that? They get more money....it's a win win for them. The problem for zeiss is that they will sell it twice the amount canon will charge but in that regard it's nothing new either.

It's a lot more than lack of permission from canon/Nikon, it's probably more closes with your theory that there may be anti competition clause in their agreement not to release AF lenses for the bigger players. I bet zeiss wants to! why? Because it is a HUGE market of user base and it would make them a lot of money. It's silly to see that cow there and you can't milk.
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They must earn a fortune from their medical imaging optics so camera lenses are probably small fry to them tbh. I only ever see olympus, leica or zeiss optics in the laboratories I've been to, which are serviced constantly and have some hefty price tags to boot!
 
Hyburnate said:
He shoots both :p And a S3 IIRC. Used to shoot a D800E I think :) And a 5D Mk3
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You must be thinking of someone else, I had 5D2 and 35L + 85mm 1.8. Sold all that after my last wedding as I no longer had a need for that level of kit and could use the cash. I'll go full frame again later this year either with Canon 6D or Nikon D600/800.
 
Raymond Lin said:
But to pay all that money and not have AF, their only reason is lack of permission? I don't buy it, if they want to, they will and I bet they can.

Everyone else seems to be able to do it...to say they can't smells like a lie. I'm not saying using tamron auto focus on a zeiss, I'm saying they can reverse engineer it themselves. They are smart enough to make the sharpest prime lens in the world, I'm sure they are smart enough to figure an auto focus system that was designed back in the 80's.

A zeiss AF lens on canon mount surely will hurt Canon sales, but what's zeiss' problem with that? They get more money....it's a win win for them. The problem for zeiss is that they will sell it twice the amount canon will charge but in that regard it's nothing new either.

It's a lot more than lack of permission from canon/Nikon, it's probably more closes with your theory that there may be anti competition clause in their agreement not to release AF lenses for the bigger players. I bet zeiss wants to! why? Because it is a HUGE market of user base and it would make them a lot of money. It's silly to see that cow there and you can't milk.
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It is not a lack of permission. Canon and Nikon don't publish the communication protocol so sigma and 3rd parties reverse engineer it. Nothing stops Zeiss doing this. Coincidently aperture information is also not open and requires reverse engineering (on Nikon this is simple because it uses an archaic mechanical lever). Adding autofocus requires adding more lenses and increasing complexity. Additional lens elements can reduce Bokeh quality.

I think in general Zeiss don't care too much about DSLRs. Their sales are really small, not too many people want to pay the Zeiss price when canon and Nikon lens that are far cheaper produce such excellent results.
 
D.P. said:
It is not a lack of permission. Canon and Nikon don't publish the communication protocol so sigma and 3rd parties reverse engineer it. Nothing stops Zeiss doing this. Coincidently aperture information is also not open and requires reverse engineering (on Nikon this is simple because it uses an archaic mechanical lever). Adding autofocus requires adding more lenses and increasing complexity. Additional lens elements can reduce Bokeh quality.

I think in general Zeiss don't care too much about DSLRs. Their sales are really small, not too many people want to pay the Zeiss price when canon and Nikon lens that are far cheaper produce such excellent results.
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Zeiss have already said it is a lack of permission. If you're paying a premium for the product and trading on a reputation of quality that Zeiss does you don't want to open yourself to embarrassing autofocus problems you might get with a reverse engineered Tamron. You also want to know what might be in Nikon or Canon's plans as in 5 years time you won't have to be sending it back to Zeiss to be chipped again. Nikon and Canon don't want you to buy Zeiss because it takes money out of their pocket. They wouldn't give permission for Zeiss to work with them like Sony do.
 
42zx said:
You must be thinking of someone else, I had 5D2 and 35L + 85mm 1.8. Sold all that after my last wedding as I no longer had a need for that level of kit and could use the cash. I'll go full frame again later this year either with Canon 6D or Nikon D600/800.
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stick with nikon mate, more bang for buck IMO
 
Above&Beyond said:
Zeiss have already said it is a lack of permission. If you're paying a premium for the product and trading on a reputation of quality that Zeiss does you don't want to open yourself to embarrassing autofocus problems you might get with a reverse engineered Tamron. You also want to know what might be in Nikon or Canon's plans as in 5 years time you won't have to be sending it back to Zeiss to be chipped again. Nikon and Canon don't want you to buy Zeiss because it takes money out of their pocket. They wouldn't give permission for Zeiss to work with them like Sony do.
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It is is not alack of permission. Zeiss are allowed to make Nikon and canon lenses. But neither Nikon or canon publish their communication protocols to anyone so They would have to reverse engineer it. Yeah if Nikon or canon change protocols then you would have to send the lens in to get changed but that is hardly a big deal and rarely happens because large scale changes would also screw up the Nikon and canon lenses.

Lack of cooperation is not the same as lack of permission. Zeiss sales are likely too small to support the continued reverse engineering efforts. And many of the sales are to the video crowd who want a proper mechanical manual focus ring. Making their lenses AF may actually reduce sales.
 
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D.P. said:
It is is not alack of permission. Zeiss are allowed to make Nikon and canon lenses. But neither Nikon or canon publish their communication protocols to anyone so They would have to reverse engineer it. Yeah if Nikon or canon change protocols then you would have to send the lens in to get changed but that is hardly a big deal and rarely happens because large scale changes would also screw up the Nikon and canon lenses.

Lack of cooperation is not the same as lack of permission. Zeiss sales are likely too small to support the continued reverse engineering efforts. And many of the sales are to the video crowd who want a proper mechanical manual focus ring. Making their lenses AF may actually reduce sales.
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It makes no sense to offer a premium product with Sigma/Tamron reverse autofocus and something that you can't even guarantee will work as you intended it to in the coming years. I'm sure if Zeiss can make £25k master primes with ARRI it could give the reverse engineering a go, but if I was them I'd either be all in with Nikon and Canon or not bother to save tarnishing the brand. Essentially by granting permission to interface with the Nikon AF and electronics you are cooperating, and by not granting permission you are uncooperative. Can't have one without the other.

The Zeiss lenses will always have a market though, they offer some of the best lenses you can get in F mount for photography or video work.
 
D.P. said:
It is is not alack of permission. Zeiss are allowed to make Nikon and canon lenses. But neither Nikon or canon publish their communication protocols to anyone so They would have to reverse engineer it. Yeah if Nikon or canon change protocols then you would have to send the lens in to get changed but that is hardly a big deal and rarely happens because large scale changes would also screw up the Nikon and canon lenses.

Lack of cooperation is not the same as lack of permission. Zeiss sales are likely too small to support the continued reverse engineering efforts. And many of the sales are to the video crowd who want a proper mechanical manual focus ring. Making their lenses AF may actually reduce sales.
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Indeed. The only reason they change mounts is if the new technology can't be supported by an old mount or if there's a size difference.
 
Above&Beyond said:
It makes no sense to offer a premium product with Sigma/Tamron reverse autofocus and something that you can't even guarantee will work as you intended it to in the coming years.
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USB hub, 35mm and sharpest 35 on the market are all phrases which come to mind..

The simple fact is that Zeiss don't sell enough to justify the R&D into reverse engineering the autofocus systems and developing them to a standard that could be sustainable long term, while Sigma, Tamron heck Tokina do. Not to mention for as long as they're small volume they can get away with just build quality and reputation as the main selling points, as soon as they have autofocus they have to start properly competing with the pro lineups which frankly they won't come out of well.

Plus I'm sure Sony wanting the brand to themselves has something to do with it.
 
Ksanti said:
USB hub, 35mm and sharpest 35 on the market are all phrases which come to mind..

The simple fact is that Zeiss don't sell enough to justify the R&D into reverse engineering the autofocus systems and developing them to a standard that could be sustainable long term, while Sigma, Tamron heck Tokina do. Not to mention for as long as they're small volume they can get away with just build quality and reputation as the main selling points, as soon as they have autofocus they have to start properly competing with the pro lineups which frankly they won't come out of well.

Plus I'm sure Sony wanting the brand to themselves has something to do with it.
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Still not quite sure how you don't get what zeiss optics actually are in terms of market placement. You just come across as naive, as you seem to be under the illusion that the only thing companies make lenses for are DSLRs that only shoot still images...
 
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