**THE NVIDIA DRIVERS THREAD**

[Marine-RX179]

AMD could do the same and they might well be doing so right now.
But I would imagine there putting more R&D into mantle and its hard to do both

I see what you're saying but think it would be unlikely for AMD to improve DX11 performance as their focus is now on Mantle but I could be wrong.

Indeed if the improvements are as good as we're hoping then I will be a little bewildered as to why it hadn't been done before now, but on the other hand I don't think I'd dwell on it for very long either, better late than never.

But ain't Mantle main aspect of R&D already completed, and now it only a matter of minor adjustment for improving its stability/reliability? Also if it only took one guy two months to implement it into a game, I doubt Mantle itself is too complex a feature to support.

While AMD no doubt is trying their best to push Mantle, but I seriously doubt that they didn't consider the "what if" and have a fallback plan on directx. It's worth bearing in mind is M$ haven't been sitting on their hind on the inefficient dx for years, AMD wouldn't have had the need to create Mantle in the first place, but to just rely on dx.

The difference between Mantle and dx is that for AMD we can be sure that they would do their best to keep Mantle in good sharp and peak performance, as their prime focus is the PC gaming communities; as for dx, my only concern would be let's say we finally get massive improvement on one hit wonder on dx11/dx12, but after that M$ going back to sitting on their hind and back to their favorite child xbone instead...

So simply put, if M$ really care about the PC gamers and don't treat them as 2nd class citizen comparing to the xboners, then we'd have nothing to worry about. May be we should really pray for xbone to fail even worse than it is already is at the current state and PS4 to wipe it off from the face of the Earth

 

[spankingtexan]

Don't you just love that green theme in the first two posts of this page? Sorry I spoilt it with a yellow smile

 

[triss]

Mantle is iirc in alpha phase so i'd imagine its got a lot of work left in it
Theres future improvements +the older 7000's cards to sort out. But if Nvidia does get significant dx11 Gains from driver optimizations i would hope for AMD's customers AMD look at doing the same.

 

[andybird123]

But ain't Mantle main aspect of R&D already completed, and now it only a matter of minor adjustment for improving its stability/reliability? Also if it only took one guy two months to implement it into a game, I doubt Mantle itself is too complex a feature to support.

While AMD no doubt is trying their best to push Mantle, but I seriously doubt that they didn't consider the "what if" and have a fallback plan on directx. It's worth bearing in mind is M$ haven't been sitting on their hind on the inefficient dx for years, AMD wouldn't have had the need to create Mantle in the first place, but to just rely on dx.

AMD had the option to support command lists for ages but deided to create Mantle instead, I cant see them switching focus now either, they will be concentrating on pushing devs to use mantle and developing mantle drivers rather than DX drivers

 

[Gregster]

A possible scenario for these improvements and I could be a mile off...

Maybe Microsoft wanted help with DX for the Xbox and didn't want AMD involved after they have released Mantle (of which is direct competition to Microsoft) and turned to nVidia for help/support. A 'you scratch my back and I will scratch yours' scenario perhaps.

That seems logical to me.

 

[andybird123]

A possible scenario for these improvements and I could be a mile off...

Maybe Microsoft wanted help with DX for the Xbox and didn't want AMD involved after they have released Mantle (of which is direct competition to Microsoft) and turned to nVidia for help/support. A 'you scratch my back and I will scratch yours' scenario perhaps.

That seems logical to me.

I can certainly see MS being annoyed at AMD for releasing mantle in direct competition of DirectX, Ms give AMD a massive contract to supply the xbox internals, and AMD says Thankyou by trying to destroy one of their main product streams as well as making cheap PC's Competiton for the Xbox itself... No doubt MS in fact helped AMD to develop a closer to metal API in the first place

 

[Silent_Scone]

AMD would have gotten a lot more out of co-development on Xb1 than Microsoft will get out of Mantle. The very notion that MS is taking a leaf as it were out of AMDs book as some have suggested makes literally no sense. Microsoft's driver / OS teams have worked a long side NV and AMD before with their consoles and it is THEM that control the programming interface and increment any changes. AMD show them what the hardware can do, and have contact as and when they might need it, but it's very much Microsoft that are in control on these grounds. I think Mantle is more likely to be the workings of having insight from XB1's API.

A lot of people are also quick to say "well why now", but they already know the answer. It's money and time for something that up-until this point would be lost on most, because there wasn't anything to compete with it. MS being MS

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I can certainly see MS being annoyed at AMD for releasing mantle in direct competition of DirectX, Ms give AMD a massive contract to supply the xbox internals, and AMD says Thankyou by trying to destroy one of their main product streams as well as making cheap PC's Competiton for the Xbox itself... No doubt MS in fact helped AMD to develop a closer to metal API in the first place

How do you know,whether MS allowed AMD to do so,so as to undermine SteamOS??

Look how quickly Mantle was announced after SteamOS was announced??

GN was going on about how Windows 8 was a disaster for gaming,while pushing out SteamOS as a more efficient FREE alternative.

Along comes AMD saying looky here,Windows gaming can also be made efficient.

Moreover,have you not forgotten that Nvidia has done close work with Valve on OpenGL optimisations for SteamOS?? That even prompted BOTH Intel and AMD to jump onboard and until then they really didn't care as much.

Nvidia has been pushing Linux gamin much more than Intel or AMD have done over the last 5 years.

What do you think is more a threat to Windows and the MS bottom line??

Mantle which still needs Windows which means MS still sells licenses,or a free OS which means they have less licenses sold??

Plus OpenGL is the traditional DX competitor - if that gains traction again,it could mean big issues for DX,and Nvidia is pushing it the most of any of the large GPU makers on multiple platforms.

You could argue the close work done by Nvidia with Valve on SteamOS is basically trying to challenge Windows as the main PC gaming OS,and trying to attack the most important MS revenue stream.

On top of it means that Linux becomes even a bigger thread to MS.

We saw what happened with phones and tablets with Android.

DX is tied to Windows. OpenGL is not.

 

[gpuerrilla]

I embrace any new improvements and I can tell this has you worried Matt or you wouldn't have bothered running tests to try to disprove PCper's findings. Good stuff

I think it is clear to see Cat that proprietary is something that nVidia do and I don't care in truth.

Lol. Wishful thinking, I love how someone wants an opposing brands move in development to fail so much yet once it is forced (due to said brands API stance) to improve it suddenly is a great thing (as it benefits yourself).

This place is so childish sometimes!

I couldn't care what card I own as long as in the next 2-10 years I have choice and the performance I want is available.

Why there is this divide between my GPU's company is better than yours attitude is really pathetic. Great if nvidia/microsoft are suddenly taking note, as before mantle they looked like they couldn't give a monkeys as long as people were buying into their products.

 

[Silent_Scone]

Wasn't enough for someone in here to conclude CPU overhead is something that seasoned developers couldn't conquer in a month or two when prompted. It's all very childish.

 

[shankly1985]

A possible scenario for these improvements and I could be a mile off...

Maybe Microsoft wanted help with DX for the Xbox and didn't want AMD involved after they have released Mantle (of which is direct competition to Microsoft) and turned to nVidia for help/support. A 'you scratch my back and I will scratch yours' scenario perhaps.

That seems logical to me.

But then why at the future of apis event was amd all over the slides?

 

[LtMatt]

So Microsoft go to Nvidia for help with DX for Xbox, when it contains a jaguar Amd cpu and a radeon gcn 1.1 gpu. Greg i think you just outdid yourself lol.

 

[Gregster]

Just putting a reason for nVidia to be so close to Microsoft. I did say I could be miles off but a possibility none the less. All that talk of Mantle is DX12 and even when Thracks said "DX12 is Microsofts own creation" and you still didn't believe/want to believe Matt, I doubt you would believe anything reasonable anyway

LtMatt - "Is DX12 Mantle?"
Repi - "DX12 is Microsofts own creation"

LtMatt on the forums "I think DX12 is Mantle"

lmfao

 

[Silent_Scone]

So Microsoft go to Nvidia for help with DX for Xbox, when it contains a jaguar Amd cpu and a radeon gcn 1.1 gpu. Greg i think you just outdid yourself lol.

Go to help with what? Are you suggesting MS devs aren't capable of working with GK110? It's been around a while.

 

[LtMatt]

Just putting a reason for nVidia to be so close to Microsoft. I did say I could be miles off but a possibility none the less. All that talk of Mantle is DX12 and even when Thracks said "DX12 is Microsofts own creation" and you still didn't believe/want to believe Matt, I doubt you would believe anything reasonable anyway

LtMatt - "Is DX12 Mantle?"
Repi - "DX12 is Microsofts own creation"

LtMatt on the forums "I think DX12 is Mantle"

lmfao

Actually repi didn't say that, it was Thracks. A fellow dev said DX12 programming guide was the same as Mantle though, which is a fair indication of the similarities i think.

Go to help with what? Are you suggesting MS devs aren't capable of working with GK110? It's been around a while.

You need to read Greg's post.

 

[Rusty0611]

Why there is this divide between my GPU's company is better than yours attitude is really pathetic. Great if nvidia/microsoft are suddenly taking note, as before mantle they looked like they couldn't give a monkeys as long as people were buying into their products.

Not sure why you've quoted and pulled up Greg on this point? Both sides of the divide are as bad as each other on this point . Greg's no AMD fan - he makes no attempt to be portrayed as neutral - but there's Red Greg's as well .

It's prevalent in every single GPU sub forum on the planet though so do what I do - let it be. As long as it's humouress and good banter, what harm is it?

 

[Silent_Scone]

You need to read Greg's post.

I did, and it doesn't reflect what you're saying. Having a business relationship doesn't mean MS needed help, only that NV probably wanted their hardware on show. And it makes sense considering it's the fastest GPU currently on the market. That is normally the case in such show cases such as this.

 

[LtMatt]

Not sure why you've quoted and pulled up Greg on this point? Both sides of the divide are as bad as each other on this point . Greg's no AMD fan - he makes no attempt to be portrayed as neutral - but there's Red Greg's as well .

It's prevalent in every single GPU sub forum on the planet though so do what I do - let it be. As long as it's humouress and good banter, what harm is it?

Red Gregs, Lol Rusty.

Also i believe its humorous and not humouress Rusty.

I did, and it doesn't reflect what you're saying. Having a business relationship doesn't mean MS needed help, only that NV probably wanted their hardware on show. And it makes sense considering it's the fastest GPU currently on the market. That is normally the case in such show cases such as this.

Greg is saying Nvidia are helping MS with DX on the xbox which contains AMD parts. I disagree. They might be helping with DX on the pc, but i doubt their helping with dx on the console when they don't have any hardware on the console, nor can they create drivers for amd hardware.

 

[Rusty0611]

It is - that's what you get trying to tap one out on the iPhone.

 

[LtMatt]

It is - that's what you get trying to tap one out on the iPhone.

Tap one out has a different meaning where i come from.