You realise by virtue of there being less accidents per mile, autopilot has also saved lives?
It's kind of like a vaccine, you'll get some people who have severe adverse affects and die, but then you save many more lives than that.
The ongoing Elon Twitter saga: "insert demographic" melts down
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You realise by virtue of there being less accidents per mile, autopilot has also saved lives?
It's kind of like a vaccine, you'll get some people who have severe adverse affects and die, but then you save many more lives than that.
Associate
I don’t know why, but for some reason this is not a sentence I expected to read from Roar.
I had presumed things without thinking about them, and I apologise.
Soldato
You cannot really say that for sure, just make an assumption that there is some case to be made thats true.
The accident and deaths stats are interesting with way more (per mile driven) on back country roads etc and the main roads far less risk.
I would personally make the assumption that way more people would buy teslas who do higher mileage and hence spend far more time on main roads.
You know the old correlation and causation thing
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Soldato
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The elon cult nonsense on twitter is starting to annoy me.
Wait, what?
How can you possibly know that?
The sample size of journeys made by self-driving Tesla's must be inconceivably smaller than the sample size of data we have on traditionally made journeys.
What cars were used in the comparison? Old bangers from the 80's or recent ones with modern safety features, airbags, ABS brakes, traction control etc?
What countries were compared? What roads? What age demographic of human drivers? What was the previous road accident history of drivers used in the sample?
Are you absolutely certain that it's other people who don't understand data analysis and statistics?
Regardless, it very well may be true, and if it isn't now then I expect it will be one day, but I really don't see how you or anyone could make that kind of claim with any level of certainty whatsoever right now, based upon what surely must be such incredibly limited data, all of which might have been collected without any real concern for rigorous controls in the comparison.
Who knows? Maybe I'm doing the data a disservice and it's actually extremely robust, but if so would you mind pointing me to it, because I would genuinely love to take a look, thanks.
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Commissario
I was seeing earlier that it appears a number of twitter accounts belonging to lawyers seem to have been suspended in the last day or two.
Oddly enough the thing they have in common is that the people they belong to are involved in legal action against Tesla/Twitter holding and have been mean to Musk's lawyers by requiring they abide by their duty to the court and act in the required good faith. They objected to Musk's lawyers after hours attempt to bypass procedure as part of his effort to hide the names of investors.
The whole free speech thing is really going well.
Oddly enough the thing they have in common is that the people they belong to are involved in legal action against Tesla/Twitter holding and have been mean to Musk's lawyers by requiring they abide by their duty to the court and act in the required good faith. They objected to Musk's lawyers after hours attempt to bypass procedure as part of his effort to hide the names of investors.
The whole free speech thing is really going well.
What accounts?
Commissario
I'll try and find more, but IIRC several accounts linked to action being taken against x holdings/tesla suddenly got banned/suspended including one that was simply reposting the public court documents.
Basically it sounds like a repeat of his ban of reporters who posted about his banning of the plane guy, but this time involving lawyers and court reporters.
Basically it sounds like a repeat of his ban of reporters who posted about his banning of the plane guy, but this time involving lawyers and court reporters.
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Soldato
Wait, what?
How can you possibly know that?
The sample size of journeys made by self-driving Tesla's must be inconceivably smaller than the sample size of data we have on traditionally made journeys.
What cars were used in the comparison? Old bangers from the 80's or recent ones with modern safety features, airbags, ABS brakes, traction control etc?
What countries were compared? What roads? What age demographic of human drivers? What was the previous road accident history of drivers used in the sample?
Are you absolutely certain that it's other people who don't understand data analysis and statistics?
Regardless, it very well may be true, and if it isn't now then I expect it will be one day, but I really don't see how you or anyone could make that kind of claim with any level of certainty whatsoever right now, based upon what surely must be such incredibly limited data, all of which might have been collected without any real concern for rigorous controls in the comparison.
Who knows? Maybe I'm doing the data a disservice and it's actually extremely robust, but if so would you mind pointing me to it, because I would genuinely love to take a look, thanks.
It's probably largely based around their own published stats:
Tesla Vehicle Safety Report | Tesla United Kingdom
At Tesla, we believe that technology can help improve safety. That’s why Tesla vehicles are engineered to be the safest cars in the world. We believe the unique combination of passive safety, active safety, and automated driver assistance is crucial for keeping not just Tesla drivers and...
At one point they claimed the MHTSA had reviewed these, but I think we can all agree that drawing firm conclusions from such a thousand foot up view of the data is potentially problematic.
They are currently under flak over the last year for two key issues, although they are related
1. Their stats for Level 2 assistive system crashes have fallen behind some of their competitors
2. The reason for this is being attributed to their softening of mechanisms used to enforce the driver monitoring (i.e. alert, hands on wheel, etc)..
It's probably largely based around their own published stats:
This is comparing Tesla cars for miles with AP vs without AP before an accident.Tesla Vehicle Safety Report | Tesla United Kingdom
At Tesla, we believe that technology can help improve safety. That’s why Tesla vehicles are engineered to be the safest cars in the world. We believe the unique combination of passive safety, active safety, and automated driver assistance is crucial for keeping not just Tesla drivers and...www.tesla.com
At one point they claimed the MHTSA had reviewed these, but I think we can all agree that drawing firm conclusions from such a thousand foot up view of the data is potentially problematic.
They are currently under flak over the last year for two key issues, although they are related
1. Their stats for Level 2 assistive system crashes have fallen behind some of their competitors
2. The reason for this is being attributed to their softening of mechanisms used to enforce the driver monitoring (i.e. alert, hands on wheel, etc)..
Thanks at least that gives me something to digest.
I'll take a peek when I get a chance.
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Soldato
Dark Side Of Tesla Autopilot: NHTSA Data Reveals 736 Crashes, 17 Deaths
The Tesla Autopilot was involved in way more accidents than previous estimates, reveals NHTSA data.
insideevs.com
Soldato
Hey I admit I was wrong. Hands up, no excuses, I was wrong. The more I read and heard about him the more I came to realise I was wrong. Once your eyes have been opened though you can't unsee it.
Soldato
Fair play, and a credit to you for changing your mind..
I may often be slightly right centre, but I just don't like his business practices and as you point out, once you see it you just flip..
Soldato
Fair play, and a credit to you for changing your mind..
I may often be slightly right centre, but I just don't like his business practices and as you point out, once you see it you just flip..
I consider myself a centrist who leans left and right on certain issues. I love space tech and as such I love what SpaceX has done and it has done some great stuff, I think my opinion of Elon came from that but like I said the more i read and heard about him the more I realised he can be a massive douche and some of his claims are just lies and outright fraud.
Associate
It can be a tricky one because you can’t deny that Tesla have made successful cars and SpaceX have made a masterpiece of rocketry in the Falcon 9.
Then you see what his other projects have achieved and what his decade of interviews and claims have resulted in and you can’t help but feel those two companies have achieved DESPITE having Musk involved.
I like Thunderf00t and Common Sense Skeptic, but I always watch them with the knowledge they have hate boners for Musk and it may be that some nuance is missing from their arguements. At the other end of the scale you have Tim Dodd who (having managed to get a chance to actually go to Space) now has no choice but to worship Musk on his knees and take whatever is presented with a smile on his face. I had to unsubscribe from him as it was just so awful to watch.
At the end of the day I don’t need a rocket, don’t need a tunnel, don’t use Twitter and I’m not going to buy a Tesla so really none of it effects me and I’m happy to sit back and see how everything pans out. I definitely had my eyes opened a few years ago though.
Then you see what his other projects have achieved and what his decade of interviews and claims have resulted in and you can’t help but feel those two companies have achieved DESPITE having Musk involved.
I like Thunderf00t and Common Sense Skeptic, but I always watch them with the knowledge they have hate boners for Musk and it may be that some nuance is missing from their arguements. At the other end of the scale you have Tim Dodd who (having managed to get a chance to actually go to Space) now has no choice but to worship Musk on his knees and take whatever is presented with a smile on his face. I had to unsubscribe from him as it was just so awful to watch.
At the end of the day I don’t need a rocket, don’t need a tunnel, don’t use Twitter and I’m not going to buy a Tesla so really none of it effects me and I’m happy to sit back and see how everything pans out. I definitely had my eyes opened a few years ago though.
Soldato
Just a bit more news about the Tesla self driving.
Oops
Oops
their article is vague on saying where Musk had claimed a low fsd fatality rate -
but if you watch some of their fsd advertising from investor day - fsd is pretty Gung ho
I'd prefer if the car braked in that situation like a human would.
NHSTA seems prertty partisan in allowing tesla crash data statistics to remain confidential, surprising that ford/bm/vw aren't protesting.
I suppose they wouldn't reveal if someone was killed whilst distracted using twitter in their car;
Soldato
All such info should be publicly available. Road users should know how safe or dangerous these systems are that authorities are allowing to be beta tested on the roads.
Soldato
I disagree.
IMO its that legislation is behind and legislation should prescribe how the systems should function.
Prescribing when for example the system would be allowed to disengage, what reaction times are required to common events, such as people stepping into the road.
Probably prescribing what action should be taken to someone stepping out into the road, you wouldn't want the car doing an emergency stop for someone 2-3x braking distance away for example.
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