The Rangers Saga and Fallout Thread

[steve1873]

I never claimed it was. I don't own any shares in any club.

My home town club is Crystal Palace. When I moved to Ireland and had to endure Celtic shirt wearing wallys telling me to " off back to England" I quickly started supporting Rangers.

I like Rangers more than any other club in Scotland. I do believe in fair play an honesty. I feel that Rangers have been playing outside the rules and I view that as cheating. I can't condone that sort of behaviour.

If Crystal Palace were guilty of the same offences I would feel the same way. In fact I would probably feel even more betrayed.

Rangers fans are victims in all of this. However, the club needs to be punished severely. Rangers fans should be able to cheer on the team with pride.

If Rangers won the Champions League and it was discovered they had bribed every referee on the way to winning - would you be proud of that? I wouldn't. Winning means nothing if it isn't done fairly.

FFS it is hardly the same thing is it? How am I meant to take anything you say serious when you compare the non payment of PAYE to match fixing?

Rangers the football club are victims of Craig Whyte. Directors who spoke out, including chairman Alistair Johnson, chief executive Martin Bain and company secretary Donald McIntyre were sacked for speaking out against the man.

As has already been stated, Rangers were up to date with all tax obligations as of the time of Craig Whyte's takeover. That the club has subsequently been raped by Whyte is hardly the club's fault.

 

[TheGamingGeneral]

FFS it is hardly the same thing is it? How am I meant to take anything you say serious when you compare the non payment of PAYE to match fixing?

The SFA themselfs said the only thing worse than what rangers have done so far would be match fixing.

 

[steve1873]

The SFA themselfs said the only thing worse than what rangers have done so far would be match fixing.

Which is a complete nonsense.

Barcelona owe the Spanish tax authority over €48million.

Atletico Madrid owe the Spanish tax authority €155million.

Among others. Have the Spanish FA punished either? I mean surely, the only thing they could do which is worse is match fixing?

 

[Swordfish]

Can you show or provide me with evidence to the contrary.?

I`m connvinced other directors knew something wasn`t quite right but were subsequently fired.

What can they do with their concerns? I remember Martin Bain and Alastair Johnston speaking out in the press about Craig Whyte and their concerns but
I`d be very surpirsed if they knew to what extent CW was unable to pay the bills.

They have said as much. Can you explain what they would achieve or gain by lying about this? Are you suggesting this has all been a plan?.

There is no way one man can have all the financial control you think he had. Others were involved and they may or may not have left the club by whatever means but this is certainly not the case of Craig Whyte being the only person to blame.

 

[Swordfish]

Which is a complete nonsense.

Barcelona owe the Spanish tax authority over €48million.

Atletico Madrid owe the Spanish tax authority €155million.

Among others. Have the Spanish FA punished either? I mean surely, the only thing they could do which is worse is match fixing?

What does teams in other countries have to do with Rangers being in administration.

Besides the Spanish Authorities have only themselves to blame if the above is true because they are well known to be softer on the sport stars in Spain (they only pay 20% tax regardless of income).

 

[steve1873]

There is no way one man can have all the financial control you think he had. Others were involved and they may or may not have left the club by whatever means but this is certainly not the case of Craig Whyte being the only person to blame.

And you, or the SFA can prove that can you, since the burden of proof is on the accuser? The others that MAY have been involved may have been in collusion with Whyte with administration, liquidation and an assett sale being their primary objective - again not exactly in the clubs best interest, nor the clubs fault.

The wording of the tribunal was that others "must have known", without offering a single shred of evidence to back up such a claim. Alistair Johnston contacted Stratclyde Police for goodness sake - what else could anyone have possibly done?

 

[steve1873]

What does teams in other countries have to do with Rangers being in administration.

Besides the Spanish Authorities have only themselves to blame if the above is true because they are well known to be softer on the sport stars in Spain (they only pay 20% tax regardless of income).

They play the same sport, with the same fundamental rules do they not?

I am merely highlighting the fact that owed taxes do not constitute comparisons with match fixing.

 

[TheGamingGeneral]

Which is a complete nonsense.

Barcelona owe the Spanish tax authority over €48million.

Atletico Madrid owe the Spanish tax authority €155million.

Among others. Have the Spanish FA punished either? I mean surely, the only thing they could do which is worse is match fixing?

So your argument is, because the Spanish don't do it, neither should we? Last time I checked Spain isn't exactly a case study on sound ecnonimics. It is not the most severe penalty they could have been given, it has been agreed by the appeals pannel to be correct based on the SFA's own rules but that isnt good enough for rangers fans.

How about this. I put it to you, the transfer embargo is a complete non issue, because no club, in there right mind would sell a player to rangers in the near future, for fear of being yet another name on that list still to be paid. They havent paid for the ones they have got!

 

[Swordfish]

And you, or the SFA can prove that can you, since the burden of proof is on the accuser? The others that MAY have been involved may have been in collusion with Whyte with administration, liquidation and an assett sale being their primary objective - again not exactly in the clubs best interest, nor the clubs fault.

The wording of the tribunal was that others "must have known", without offering a single shred of evidence to back up such a claim. Alistair Johnston contacted Stratclyde Police for goodness sake - what else could anyone have possibly done?

It's not about what I can or cannot prove.

I am simply trying to emphasise that the situation Rangers find themselves in is not entirely down to Craig Whyte as every Rangers supporter seems to think.

If other Directors were aware why did they not do the right thing and report it to the relevant authorities, could it be because they would implicate themselves?

 

[semi-pro waster]

They play the same sport, with the same fundamental rules do they not?

I am merely highlighting the fact that owed taxes do not constitute comparisons with match fixing.

It's stating the obvious but they play in Spain, if the Spanish authorities choose not to take it seriously or implement proper sanctions that shouldn't impact on whether Scotland does or Albania or indeed any other country. In terms of European football then in theory they should be subject to precisely the same fair play rules as everyone else and I'd certainly hope they will be.

However what you appear to be arguing is that "they get away with it so why can't we?" and you're probably right if you think it's a bit unfair but it's not really an argument that a position is correct, merely that others aren't being punished sufficiently.

 

[steve1873]

OK then, closer to home. Scottish Cup finalists Hearts have on numerous occasions this season failed to pay their players and have had I believe 3 winding up orders issued from HMRC regarding non payment of tax - when can we expect the announcement of their punishments?

 

[Jokester]

OK then, closer to home. Scottish Cup finalists Hearts have on numerous occasions this season failed to pay their players and have had I believe 3 winding up orders issued from HMRC regarding non payment of tax - when can we expect the announcement of their punishments?

I would have serious doubts about whether Hearts will get their UEFA license for next season. It remains to be seen.

Edit: They would need all their players paid and taxes paid for the period upto the end of March this year and I'm pretty sure HMRC had them in court again in April for outstanding taxes.

 

[semi-pro waster]

OK then, closer to home. Scottish Cup finalists Hearts have on numerous occasions this season failed to pay their players and have had I believe 3 winding up orders issued from HMRC regarding non payment of tax - when can we expect the announcement of their punishments?

Again it's not an argument other than "but other people need punished too". In legal terms that wouldn't count as an exculpatory defence and probably not even as mitigating circumstances.

However if Hearts were found guilty of tax fraud then I'd expect them also to be punished, it'll no doubt be painful but it would also be no less than was deserved. My understanding is that they have squared all debts with HMRC though so the number of winding up orders is somewhat irrelevant as it has now been sorted. It will however be a matter for the SFA and Hearts to sort out whether Hearts get a license to participate in UEFA competitions.

 

[McRod]

Again it's not an argument other than "but other people need punished too".

However what you appear to be arguing is that "they get away with it so why can't we?" .

So your argument is, because the Spanish don't do it, neither should we?

Steve1873 was highlighting the fact that the SFA apparently deem owing tax as much of a "crime" as match fixing when teams from all over Europe are currently in arrears.

It is absolute nonsense to suggest outstanding, unpaid or disputed tax bills equate to match fixing.

If thats the case then half the SPL are currently in breach.

Hysterical.

 

[McRod]

However if Hearts were found guilty of tax fraud then I'd expect them also to be punished, it'll no doubt be painful but it would also be no less than was deserved.

This gives the impression that you`re going to sit on your hands and watch a charlatan break the law on behalf of your club?

Remember the is a distinct difference between deliberate tax evasion, tax avoidance and the inability to pay taxes.

Is this currently happening at Hearts. Are your fan groups actually doing anything about it?

I`d be very disappointed if you just rolled over and accepted this like your post suggests.

 

[steve1873]

I would have serious doubts about whether Hearts will get their UEFA license for next season. It remains to be seen.

Edit: They would need all their players paid and taxes paid for the period upto the end of March this year and I'm pretty sure HMRC had them in court again in April for outstanding taxes.

When can we expect SFA sanctions?

 

[McMav]

Interesting from the telegraph today.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...hat-breach-its-financial-fair-play-rules.html

Uefa has shelved proposals to impose a transfer ban on clubs that breach its financial fair-play rules amid concerns that its planned penalties will be legally unenforceable, or face challenges from individual players.

Perhaps Rangers should go down the legal route now since European footballs governing body thinks it will be illegal to do.

Lawyers have advised that Uefa could be open to restraint-of-trade suits from players excluded from the competition.

So if they cant exclude players from their competitions then how can SFA exclude players from its. Interesting time ahead.

 

[afraser2k]

When can we expect SFA sanctions?

I would've thought they'd only get inolved if Hearts refused to pay the outstanding debt (administration) or if they received an official complaint from the players?

Interesting from the telegraph today.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...hat-breach-its-financial-fair-play-rules.html



Perhaps Rangers should go down the legal route now since European footballs governing body thinks it will be illegal to do.



So if they cant exclude players from their competitions then how can SFA exclude players from its. Interesting time ahead.

They'll need to argue against the SFA's own rules on the process so would probably have to go down the courts and not any sports-related ones.

 

[McMav]

I would've thought they'd only get inolved if Hearts refused to pay the outstanding debt (administration) or if they received an official complaint from the players?





They'll need to argue against the SFA's own rules on the process so would probably have to go down the courts and not any sports-related ones.

Exactly this isnt sport related this is breaching european laws.

 

[semi-pro waster]

Edit: They would need all their players paid and taxes paid for the period upto the end of March this year and I'm pretty sure HMRC had them in court again in April for outstanding taxes.

The last news stories I can find relate to February, it's possible that HMRC also took Hearts to court in April but it's surprising if it hasn't been picked up by any media sources. Then again it does seem to be happening embarrassingly often so maybe it doesn't even count as news any more.

Steve1873 was highlighting the fact that the SFA apparently deem owing tax as much of a "crime" as match fixing when teams from all over Europe are currently in arrears.

It is absolute nonsense to suggest outstanding, unpaid or disputed tax bills equate to match fixing.

If thats the case then half the SPL are currently in breach.

Hysterical.

Not quite, it seems the SFA said the only thing worse would be match fixing. The scale between the tax offences Rangers are accused of and match fixing might be almost exponential but if there were no offences worse between the two then it is still logical to say that one is worse than the other. It isn't very revealing however to do so if there is such a large jump between the options.

This gives the impression that you`re going to sit on your hands and watch a charlatan break the law on behalf of your club?

Remember the is a distinct difference between deliberate tax evasion, tax avoidance and the inability to pay taxes.

Is this currently happening at Hearts. Are your fan groups actually doing anything about it?

I`d be very disappointed if you just rolled over and accepted this like your post suggests.

Your argument has been that Rangers could have done no more, I expect Hearts could also have done no more but it's a bit late to state your concern after the fact. I'm afraid that me saying "I never did trust that Romanov much" holds no more weight than someone saying "that Craig Whyte always seemed a shifty character, we're not responsible for what he did in the name of our club".

At present it seems that Hearts have settled their outstanding debts but as to whether there will be any further sanctions - I simply don't know. Again though the argument about whether another party has been punished at a different level is dubious at best, it may well be simply that they have been punished too little rather than that you have been punished too much. I'd be careful of opening the door too far on that one, you might find that the SFA (or whoever) ends up saying "you know what, you're right, they weren't punished enough but nor were you and with your inability to accept what is a more lenient punishment than we could have imposed we're now going to go for the maximum for all parties".