The Rangers Saga and Fallout Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
. Tell us where we, the Rangers fans, went wrong? :D

Who said Rangers fans were to blame for the situation? I havent read a single comment blaming Rangers fans for the financial situation at Ibrox.

What I have read is the arrogance of Rangers fans saying they shouldnt be punished, "cause we are Rangers, Ranger are Scottish Football" and all that ****.

It is a shame for the "ordinary" Rangers fan, but not for those who come on to forums spouting the stuff you are spouting, go to marches, threaten boycotts of those "who have wronged Rangers" and so on...
 
The fact (and that's fact used in a correct context) that there are eleven other clubs in the SPL and a further thirty in divisions 1-3 tells you, or should, that there's a lot more to Scottish football than Rangers.

If you want to make the argument that both Rangers and Celtic are the biggest clubs in the SPL or that between them they've won the majority of the trophies then that's a different argument but to say they're the entire history of Scottish football is a conceit that borders on the ridiculous.



Maybe they will survive and maybe they won't but in each case it's a situation that the club got themselves into irrespective of Rangers and the supporters of each club will have to face up to their debt.



It's not hard to argue otherwise, Rangers are important because of sheer size but then so are Celtic. Neither of them are the absolute be all and end all for Scottish football - if they were both to disappear then Scottish football would adapt, it might be lessened in the eyes of the World but then again with both Celtic and Rangers it's hardly viewed as a shining example of footballing excellence so the loss of status is somewhat moot. Maybe it is what is needed to create a healthier state of Scottish football in the longer term.



I don't know if I'd go as far as to say that it would definitely be good but I'm certainly not all that worried about it should it occur. I think some clubs might struggle (and Hearts could well be in that number) but as you say it might be needed to get a more balanced league.

I'd say the 80s were somewhat of an aberration in Scottish football given that for a couple of decades before and after it's been close to exclusively the preserve of the Old Firm but I take the point that it's become less and less likely to be any team outside those two winning the league (Hearts and Aberdeen coming close a couple of time excepted).

Agree on absolutely all points.

Maybe the entire building needs to be demolished before it can be rebuilt.

My biggest concern in all of this is even when Rangers get back on their feet, there is still this staleness in Scottish Football that won't be fixed any time soon and the constant and continuing threat of administration to several clubs.

I see only 1 option and it is to create some kind of 2 tier European League with playoff`s for the CL trophy etc.

Wealth has to come down through the leagues and i see no other way.

Clubs in Scotland cannot be millions and millions in the red and there simply isn`t the infrastructure or mentality here to create a conveyor belt of kids that we can sell on to the Premiership etc. The standard of our leage is very very poor.
 
I didnt know reading a post on a forum constituted "meeting" people. Good luck with your social skills.

It is the attitudes of people like you that makes this car crash all the more enjoyable. You and Sandy Jardine would get on well.

Thanks for clearing that up Captain Obvious.

My search continues :(
 
You need some education on the legalities regarding tax evasion and tax avoidance.

It is not illegal being unable to pay tax if it can be shown or proven that there is simply no means to pay it.

If you don`t have the means to pay, you are made bankrupt, or in the case of a company or business, you go in to administration, receivership or liquidation.

If you cannot pay it, you are served a notice with a specific amount of time to pay. If you cannot, the HMRC issue a winding up order.

In this recession, many many companies are running 1 or even 2 VAT or Tax "quarters" behind. This is not illegal but it incures penalty charges. If a company thinks they can trade through these charges, they will pay the penalty, if not, they are wound up.

In Rangers case, like many other businesses, there is a decision by the owners as to whether they think they can trade through the cash flow problem. One can only assume Craig Whyte thought he could find cash from somewhere (CL maybe) to sustain us longer.

His biggest mistake was he didn`t go in to administration when Maribor beat us as there was no way back.

If he had acted illegally, he would have been arrested and charged by now as HMRC don`t mess around in these kind of situations.

I was actually referring to the EBT matter. However I had mistakenly believed that matter had been settled. It is still hanging over Rangers though like a Sword of Damocles.

So to answer your question, Craig Whyte, if found guilty, has to face the music and as far as the club goes personally i don`t think we had any way of knowing what he was up to and therefor are innocent of all charges and therefor should start next season +10 points, receive an apology off everyone and be given a £20m warchest by the SFA.

How`s that for starters?.

I didn't ask about Craig White - I asked about Rangers F.C.

So, for starters, your response is laughable. Rangers Ltd (or whatever the company is called) is a separate legal entity and is liable for its actions. Craig White may or may not be separately liable. This doesn't change the fact that Rangers Ltd is being punished for the actions of Rangers Ltd. Whoever was in control of Rangers Ltd doesn't change the liability of the club.

I am not a huge fan of Scottish football but Rangers are, in essence, my Scottish team. Your attitude is just typical of so many Rangers fans. This attitude is what is turning every single neutral fan against you.

Rangers have broken the rules. They have cheated the rest of the Scottish leagues and they need to stand up and face the consequences of this.
 
Like this....

RANGERS fans' chief Andy Kerr today urged the club to fight the legalities of the SFA's transfer embargo to the ends of the earth.

And in a stark warning, Kerr also insisted that the Ibrox support will mobilise themselves to ensure the ramifications of the ban will be felt by ALL SPL clubs.

Kerr said: "There is widespread anger among the Rangers fans, as you can well imagine. We will take a stand now."

Last night's decision by a three-man appeal body to uphold the original punishment of a 12-month transfer embargo on players over the age of 18 has been met by a furious response from the Rangers support and Kerr has warned that they will not take the decision lying down.

Rangers' administrators were today weighing up their options but look certain to take legal action against the SFA, possibly in civil courts or the Court or Arbitration for Sport (CAS) in Switzerland.

Several first-team stars have cut-price get-out clauses in their contracts after agreeing to wage cuts and, should they activate them and leave, Gers would be unable to sign replacements. Already, Everton are eyeing a swoop for Steven Naismith, who has a £2million trigger release.

The Rangers Supporters' Assembly will now:

*Lobby the club to withdraw from the Scottish Cup next season.

*Plan to boycott all away games.

*Put pressure on sponsors.

*Call for Rangers players to withdraw from the Scotland squad to face the USA in Florida later this month.


Kerr added: "We feel that while our circumstances are unique, they are not exceptional, yet the SFA seem to be focused on making some kind of an example here.

"There have been other clubs this season who have not been able to pay the wages of their players, yet there has been very little in the way of punishments handed out for that. Ultimately, we have to do what we think is the best course of action now.

"We met when the SFA first announced the transfer embargo and had preliminary discussions about what to do. But at the time we felt we were jumping into it too quickly, and we wanted to wait and see whether or not common sense would surface at an appeal.

"That hasn't been the case and the club need to take this fight all the way. They have to challenge this tooth and nail.

"The body of opinion is definitely behind taking the players out of the national team, although personally I would have to say that I am cautious about pushing for such a thing because it isn't particularly fair that the international career of a player is hampered because of this situation.

"But at the same time, if Allan McGregor or Lee Wallace or Steven Whittaker get injured when they are playing for Scotland, how do we replace them?"

Kerr also believes that the whole of Scottish football will be punished because of the embargo.

He added: "When Rangers signed Steven Naismith from Kilmarnock, the sale went a long way to ensuring that the Rugby Park club did not go into administration.

"There are lots of players in the SPL that I am sure Rangers will have been looking at, and the bottom line is that buying these guys from other Scottish clubs benefits the game.

"If you take that out for a year then I am sure there will be one or two clubs who will feel it.

"The Rangers support need to do everything within their power to make a stand now.

"We are bitterly disappointed at the decision to uphold the embargo ... but it is not finished yet."

Hilarious !
 
"There are lots of players in the SPL that I am sure Rangers will have been looking at, and the bottom line is that buying these guys from other Scottish clubs benefits the game.

Only if Rangers actually pay for them!

:)

One thing that I personally find telling, is that I have not spoken to a single person, who has felt that Rangers have been treated unfairly.
 
Like this....

RANGERS fans' chief Andy Kerr today urged the club to fight the legalities of the SFA's transfer embargo to the ends of the earth.

I think he needs to re-read the statement that said the SFA panel were entitled to bring in extra punishments according to the SFA's own rules. This is why I don't think the further appeals will get anywhere and it's just hot air from the administrators. Also, a boycott will damage the chances of a newco getting into the SPL since the chairmen will realise there won't be many Rangers fans either way?

The panel didn't want to remove the club's SFA membership since that would kill the club (no chance of a SPL or SFL place) and thought £100k was too lenient.

Someone at the club other than Whyte must've known what was going on and why didn't they contact the SFA? Alex Thomson named a few folk in his blog so will be interesting to see if there's a police investigation for fraud.
 
I was actually referring to the EBT matter. However I had mistakenly believed that matter had been settled. It is still hanging over Rangers though like a Sword of Damocles.



I didn't ask about Craig White - I asked about Rangers F.C.

So, for starters, your response is laughable. Rangers Ltd (or whatever the company is called) is a separate legal entity and is liable for its actions. Craig White may or may not be separately liable. This doesn't change the fact that Rangers Ltd is being punished for the actions of Rangers Ltd. Whoever was in control of Rangers Ltd doesn't change the liability of the club.

I am not a huge fan of Scottish football but Rangers are, in essence, my Scottish team. Your attitude is just typical of so many Rangers fans. This attitude is what is turning every single neutral fan against you.

Rangers have broken the rules. They have cheated the rest of the Scottish leagues and they need to stand up and face the consequences of this.

Rangers aren`t your Scottish team. No Rangers "fan" would ever regard themselves as a cheat.

In case it went over your head, i was kidding about the 20m warchest, youre suggestion that is was laughable had the desired effect then.
 
Everyone else?

Are you deliberately ignoring the part the charlatans had to play in our downfall?

Explain, in your own words, what the decent innocent fans could or should have done to avoid this situation.

You can`t seem to seperate us from the chairman and therefor conclude that we had a big meeting and all 50 thousand of us decided to cheat, not pay tax etc? :D

Imagine for a moment, Milny boy was up to his ears in it, sacked all his directors and fiddled the books at night on his own by candlelight. What would you have done differently from the Players, staff and supporters of Rangers.

At what point would you have jumped in and stopped it. Tell us where we, the Rangers fans, went wrong? :D
The board was driven by their insatiable desire to beat Celtic at all costs, driven along by their fans vehement belief that defeat was not an option who were quite happy to accept things as they were and indeed deny that all was not well for years. Who was it that said that for every pound Celtic spend, we'll spend two? The fans lapped it up.

The suggestion that this was orchestrated by one man is ludicrous - it was on going for years. See no evil, hear no evil speak no evil comes to mind and it's why the SFA punished Rangers as a whole rather than one man.
 
The board was driven by their insatiable desire to beat Celtic at all costs, driven along by their fans vehement belief that defeat was not an option who were quite happy to accept things as they were and indeed deny that all was not well for years. Who was it that said that for every pound Celtic spend, we'll spend two? The fans lapped it up.

The suggestion that this was orchestrated by one man is ludicrous - it was on going for years. See no evil, hear no evil speak no evil comes to mind and it's why the SFA punished Rangers as a whole rather than one man.

Thats not what i asked.

In May last year we had 18m debt and falling and ALL taxes were paid and up to date. The EBT investigation was ongoing which was causing uncertainty.

This "insatiable desire" to beat celtic at all costs is nonsense when you consider how we downsized over the last 4 years and still won 3 titles in a row with a threadbare squad and 41 year old defenders etc.

This board of directors under Alastair Johnsom reduced our debts dramatically but Lloyds demanded MIM lose ALL non-profitable businesses or they would call in the debts.

When Whyte took over, he removed the directors one by one. Paul Murray, Martin Bain, Alastair Johnston, John Grieg and John McClelland were all fired when they raised concern after concern about Craig Whyte. (Check these facts and the timeline).

He removed all these whistle blowers yet no one was able to find out exactly what was going on.

So i ask you once more, what should/could the players, staff and fans of Rangers have done differently to avoid this situation.

Can you answer that specific point? What should we have done?
 
Rangers aren`t your Scottish team. No Rangers "fan" would ever regard themselves as a cheat.

In case it went over your head, i was kidding about the 20m warchest, youre suggestion that is was laughable had the desired effect then.

You seem to be confused as to the difference between being a fan and being a football club. You also don't get to decide who is a fan and who is not.

Rangers (the football club) have cheated.

Rangers fans have not cheated.

I know several Rangers Fans (from Glasgow) who think that the club has cheated and they are embarrassed by the actions of other Rangers fans.

The thing that was laughable about your response is any idea that Rangers is innocent.
 
Thats not what i asked.

In May last year we had 18m debt and falling and ALL taxes were paid and up to date. The EBT investigation was ongoing which was causing uncertainty.

This "insatiable desire" to beat celtic at all costs is nonsense when you consider how we downsized over the last 4 years and still won 3 titles in a row with a threadbare squad and 41 year old defenders etc.

This board of directors under Alastair Johnsom reduced our debts dramatically but Lloyds demanded MIM lose ALL non-profitable businesses or they would call in the debts.

When Whyte took over, he removed the directors one by one. Paul Murray, Martin Bain, Alastair Johnston, John Grieg and John McClelland were all fired when they raised concern after concern about Craig Whyte. (Check these facts and the timeline).

He removed all these whistle blowers yet no one was able to find out exactly what was going on.

So i ask you once more, what should/could the players, staff and fans of Rangers have done differently to avoid this situation.

Can you answer that specific point? What should we have done?
You seem to forget that it was the Rangers staff that failed to do acceptable due diligence on Whyte because they were so keen to sell the club because of the debt issue before Whyte took over (one of the things the club has been punished with). Indeed the bank were running club upto that point, because sanity had to prevail to curb the excessive spending and why the squad became threadbare. It was Murray and his board of directors that had got them to that point where the bank had to step in and take control of things.

Did the fans question the Murray regime with the same vigour that they now show the SFA, the SPL, other SPL clubs and anyother group that they perceive to be treating Rangers unfairly with threats of boycotts and hurling of abuse at members etc if they don't step back into line and kneel before the mighty 'Gers?
 
You seem to forget that it was the Rangers staff that failed to do acceptable due diligence on Whyte because they were so keen to sell the club because of the debt issue before Whyte took over (one of the things the club has been punished with). Indeed the bank were running club upto that point, because sanity had to prevail to curb the excessive spending and why the squad became threadbare. It was Murray and his board of directors that had got them to that point where the bank had to step in and take control of things.

Did the fans question the Murray regime with the same vigour that they now show the SFA, the SPL, other SPL clubs and anyother group that they perceive to be treating Rangers unfairly with threats of boycotts and hurling of abuse at members etc if they don't step back into line and kneel before the mighty 'Gers?


What Rangers staff are you specifically referring to?

Directors?

Which ones?

Donald Muir was put on to the board of MIM at the request of Lloyds so that they could try and get their 700m back.

Rangers were one of MIM`s non profit making firms and them, along with his other loss making business were jettisoned.

This time last year we were only 18m in Debt with a decent squad but could only bring money in from CL qualification.

When that failed, it was all over.

To try and blame any other director other than Murray or Whyte is simply clutching at straws and your continued attempts to do so and merely a symptom of your ingrained hatred of Rangers.

Once again i`ll remind you that we do not do walking away, from debts or anything else. Given the chance, we will make every effort as a club to repay them. We do not expect any special treatment however we will not accept any sanctions we feel are unfair. We feel this transfer embargo is deeply unfair.

SFA: "Hi Rangers, here`s a **** load of penalties, fines, sanctions and other stuff. That Craig Whyte is a bit of a bugger eh? We know youre struggling really badly at the moment but anyway, here`s the fines etc along with a transfer embargo and anything else we call pull out or arse to throw at you. Now, can you please stay in the SPL as we need your money. Thanks."

Your sources for information on the thoughts of Rangers fans would also be interesting. You ask if we questioned Murray with the same vigour as we are currently questioing the SFA. The answer is yes, we did. We were very vocal and the RST have been trying for 5 years to get on to the board so we could have more information as to what was going in. Thats not going to be good enough for you though is it. Your mind is made up.

To summarise.

We accept responsabilty for the actions of our charlatan owner(s). We fully accept and expect to repay these debts via a CVA or other means available however for the good of Scottish Football and to enable a CVA to be set up, we will NOT accept over the top sanctions especially in the form of a transfer embargo that will hinder us or handicap us in our aim of getting back on to our feet.

If we are handicapped by these callous sanctions, then we will in turn protest by withdrawing our custom (something we are absolutely entitled to do) by boycotting any club or organisation who are happy to stick the knife in and twist it for whatever warped reason they may have. This also includes sponsors of said organisations. This is simply how strongly we, the fans, feel.

If we are to pay back our debts, pay our fines etc, we need a level playing field.
 
We accept responsabilty for the actions of our charlatan owner(s).

It doesn't come across like that.

We fully accept and expect to repay these debts via a CVA or other means available however for the good of Scottish Football and to enable a CVA to be set up, we will NOT accept over the top sanctions especially in the form of a transfer embargo that will hinder us or handicap us in our aim of getting back on to our feet.

You do know that via a CVA the club will NOT be paying its debts.


Once again i`ll remind you that we do not do walking away, from debts or anything else.

A CVA will involve walking away from debts. Walking away from debts owed to me as a taxpayer and every other taxpayer in the country. It means walking away from debts to other clubs. It means walking away from debts to other companies, including charities as I understand it.

One thing Rangers most certainly do is walk away.
 
Last edited:
So to answer your question, Craig Whyte, if found guilty, has to face the music and as far as the club goes personally i don`t think we had any way of knowing what he was up to and therefor are innocent of all charges and therefor should start next season +10 points, receive an apology off everyone and be given a £20m warchest by the SFA.

How`s that for starters?.

Are you seriously saying that only Craig Whyte knew what was happening in relation to the financial administration of Rangers Football Club? If so then you are deluding yourself.
 
What Rangers staff are you specifically referring to?

Directors?

Which ones?
Pretty much anyone who was involved for any length of time, the suggestion that only Murray and Whyte knew what was going on is absurd. I believe this was one of the points raised by the SFA - it was a club issue, not a singular person.

This time last year we were only 18m in Debt with a decent squad but could only bring money in from CL qualification.

When that failed, it was all over.
This time last year Rangers weren't actually elligible for European football, but the SPL turned a blind eye.

To try and blame any other director other than Murray or Whyte is simply clutching at straws and your continued attempts to do so and merely a symptom of your ingrained hatred of Rangers.
Get over yourself, this is about the fundamental integrity of the league and all your trying to do is shift the blame onto everyone else.

Once again i`ll remind you that we do not do walking away, from debts or anything else. Given the chance, we will make every effort as a club to repay them. We do not expect any special treatment however we will not accept any sanctions we feel are unfair. We feel this transfer embargo is deeply unfair.

SFA: "Hi Rangers, here`s a **** load of penalties, fines, sanctions and other stuff. That Craig Whyte is a bit of a bugger eh? We know youre struggling really badly at the moment but anyway, here`s the fines etc along with a transfer embargo and anything else we call pull out or arse to throw at you. Now, can you please stay in the SPL as we need your money. Thanks."
Again you're shifting the blame for the running of the club onto one individual. They felt the rule breaks were serious enough to actually have Rangers thrown out of the league but that it would have finished the club off, so you bleat on that the lesser punishment isn't fair?


We accept responsabilty for the actions of our charlatan owner(s). We fully accept and expect to repay these debts via a CVA or other means available however for the good of Scottish Football and to enable a CVA to be set up, we will NOT accept over the top sanctions especially in the form of a transfer embargo that will hinder us or handicap us in our aim of getting back on to our feet.
A CVA would be walking away from the debt, let's be honest about that lots of people are going to get screwed over one way or another.

If we are handicapped by these callous sanctions, then we will in turn protest by withdrawing our custom (something we are absolutely entitled to do) by boycotting any club or organisation who are happy to stick the knife in and twist it for whatever warped reason they may have. This also includes sponsors of said organisations. This is simply how strongly we, the fans, feel.
As well as the fans are entitled to behave like that everyone else are looking on in disgust at them.
 
We fully accept and expect to repay these debts via a CVA or other means available however for the good of Scottish Football and to enable a CVA to be set up, we will NOT accept over the top sanctions especially in the form of a transfer embargo that will hinder us or handicap us in our aim of getting back on to our feet.

Do you actually think anyone believes a word of this? This pretend concern for Scottish football is beyond an embarrassment now.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom