Whilst the boot opening looks a bit awkward it doesnt seem any less practical than the boot opening on the A3 saloon currently sitting outside my house. Of course if tesla insist on banging on about this being a hatchback then I can see it being a problem.
The Tesla Thread
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I think it looks great, I love the minimalist interior too, I'd have one if it was available now. But not knowing when it'll actually be available and how much it'll cost and what else will be around at the time means I haven't made a reservation.
Quite possibly, I don't know that much about electronics tbh.
Still, even 22kW would be less than an hour in real world useage (using the 80% rule and inefficiencies). That would be fine for the vast majority of situations for charging a car at home.
The rest of the house wouldn't generally be an issue I believe. Here people upgrade to 200A mainly because they plan on using power intensive equipment, such as a workshop in their back garden (fairly common here) and it only costs about $1000CAD + new panel. Most houses will happily run off a 60a feed, but will have a 100A service (a lot/most are already 3 phase). That means you'll probably have between 50a and 150a of spare capacity most of the time, as you say. Still, thats a reasonable charging time.
My assumption would be that (currently - with the cost of EV cars) people buying an EV would consider the cost of upgrading their service and panel to 200a as part of the cost of getting a car.
It's not an ideal solution (and I have no idea if the infrastructure here would cope if everyone swapped to using up to 200a over night) but it gives you a reasonable charge time that, as mentioned before would be fine for the majority of commuters.
For most two car families, for the foreseeable future, they could have a ICE car as their second, for the times they need to go further or faster than the EV can go.
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I think something like the tesla 3 would be the perfect "second car" in our household. We would use that as the daily driver to go around town and do the shopping, then use an ICE vehicle for longer trips such as weekends away and holidays. Even many of the day trips could be driven in the tesla.
We do have a drive and a large garage so could quite easily stick a charger in one or both.
Here people trail a lead from their house to the battery warmer in their car, so I'd assume you could do the same with an EV lead. Cue falls by the elderly going up 500%. Those cords are flippin lethal!
So yeah, a better solution would be "better"!
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Haven't they open sourced the charging system? It's up to other manufactuers to implement it into their cars. Why they aren't I don't know (cost?).
I guess in a way it's a bit like Blu Ray vs HD DVD. You'll eventually en up with loads of redundant tech out there, hopefully it's the slow charging third party chargers rather than the tesla system.
That's another big problem, how is the infrastructure going to be created and maintained?
The current system won't work. No petrol station style infrastructure will make any money as electricity is so cheap. Do councils and businesses (say the big supermarkets and home stores, leisure centres and service stations on motorways start) lead the way, or do we see smaller companies dedicated to EV charging do it? The latter is happening right now but IIRC they are expensive and many we just too low powered to be any use.
Alternatively do the manufacturers follow Teslas lead and end up as full service companies and install stations all over, perhaps eventually ending up with an ATM link like system where anyone can charge for free from any system, with the occasional charger owned by a third party and charged?
Hi billysielu, thanks for bringing it back on topic.
My thoughts:
- range, performance, size, etc are all what was expected
- fantastic that the car will be supercharger capable
- also fantastic that it will have autopilot built in from day 1
- very interested to see pricing of the various models, dual motor, high performance, extended range, etc
- rear boot aperture looks too small for most people coming from a hatchback - this car needs to be practical
- the nose treatment is interesting. Without a grille it's hard to know what to do here. I'm not sure this is the best option, but it might well grow on you.
- the interior is what they are planning for production, but not 100% as yet. I wonder if HUD together with the large central display is the answer
- the 200,000 orders says a lot about the market EVs - this is more than just Tesla fanboyism. I think 200 miles range is the threshold where people have the confidence that for the majority of their journeys they will plenty of spare capacity for detours, adverse weather etc.
- Chevy will be in the market 12 months before Model 3 with the Bolt (Opel will have their version also).
- The first vehicles will be delivered late in 2017, assuming there are no delays (hmmm). I'm not sure of the current production plans, but I imagine 200k vehicles is a number of months/years production (note the current live fleet of Teslas is a little over 100k!). Musk has already said they need to revisit this aspect
- too many people are misspelling it as Telsa (even in online news headlines)
1. Sorry for not snipping the post but I'm on my phone and doing so is a nightmare...
2. To the point... Why charger are Chevy putting in the Bolt? Have they upgraded it to a faster one or is it will going to be a low power one, with consequentially slower charge time? It's been over 18 months since Tesla open sourced their patents on the supercharger... I'd assume that would be Time to get something like that installed in a car that isn't being manufactured yet.
Quite possibly, I don't know that much about electronics tbh.
Still, even 22kW would be less than an hour in real world useage (using the 80% rule and inefficiencies). That would be fine for the vast majority of situations for charging a car at home.
The rest of the house wouldn't generally be an issue I believe. Here people upgrade to 200A mainly because they plan on using power intensive equipment, such as a workshop in their back garden (fairly common here) and it only costs about $1000CAD + new panel. Most houses will happily run off a 60a feed, but will have a 100A service (a lot/most are already 3 phase). That means you'll probably have between 50a and 150a of spare capacity most of the time, as you say. Still, thats a reasonable charging time.
My assumption would be that (currently - with the cost of EV cars) people buying an EV would consider the cost of upgrading their service and panel to 200a as part of the cost of getting a car.
It's not an ideal solution (and I have no idea if the infrastructure here would cope if everyone swapped to using up to 200a over night) but it gives you a reasonable charge time that, as mentioned before would be fine for the majority of commuters.
For most two car families, for the foreseeable future, they could have a ICE car as their second, for the times they need to go further or faster than the EV can go.
When you say "less than an hour", what do you mean? A 22kW charger will put about 20 miles of charge into a Tesla per hour, so a full charge of 200 miles is 10 hours.
Edit: Sorry, maths fail. The website states 10 miles from an 11kW charger in half an hour, meaning a 22kW is 40 miles per hour of charge. So a 5 hour full charge.
In a previous thread it was highlighted that it's a lot easier to get higher amperage or voltage supplies into your home in North America than it currently is in the UK. Upgrading to a 200a supply would be simply not possible for most people here. 3 phase is almost unheard of for domestic homes. The UK may well be held back due to its infrastructure compared to places like Canada/US.
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Soldato
Anyone else here put down a deposit?
A friend has an 'S, the range thing is a non issue, the charging network in the UK is already good enough to make long journeys. While you could tolerate driving for longer without stopping for a break, you wouldn't want to do much longer.
There are a few people who make frequent long journeys that would get very irritating, but my commute and occasional trip to my parents (300 miles) will be quite easy.
Nope, the batteries in the Tesla are getting a easy life. Charging from a supercharger at the rate they do is considered a slow charge when you look at an individual cell.
You can disregard the physical size and consider the rate of charge per amp-hour of capacity. So a 1C charge is charging the battery from 0% to 100% in 1 hour, 2C is half an hour. You have to taper off as the battery gets close to full in reality to avoid over-volting the pack though. But the point is, 1C is considered slow for a Lithium cell, I have a Makita drill that charges at about 4C. The Tesla charges much faster on re-generative braking, but this is restricted when the battery is outside of ideal conditions. The real limiting factor of the supercharger is the power you can deliver to the unit and how much current you can safely dump through a connector that the user operates.
Supercharging does not impact the life of the battery.
A friend has an 'S, the range thing is a non issue, the charging network in the UK is already good enough to make long journeys. While you could tolerate driving for longer without stopping for a break, you wouldn't want to do much longer.
There are a few people who make frequent long journeys that would get very irritating, but my commute and occasional trip to my parents (300 miles) will be quite easy.
Nope, the batteries in the Tesla are getting a easy life. Charging from a supercharger at the rate they do is considered a slow charge when you look at an individual cell.
You can disregard the physical size and consider the rate of charge per amp-hour of capacity. So a 1C charge is charging the battery from 0% to 100% in 1 hour, 2C is half an hour. You have to taper off as the battery gets close to full in reality to avoid over-volting the pack though. But the point is, 1C is considered slow for a Lithium cell, I have a Makita drill that charges at about 4C. The Tesla charges much faster on re-generative braking, but this is restricted when the battery is outside of ideal conditions. The real limiting factor of the supercharger is the power you can deliver to the unit and how much current you can safely dump through a connector that the user operates.
Supercharging does not impact the life of the battery.
My knowledge of C ratings comes from a dabble in RC only, so is limited to Amps not Watts. Does the logic apply the same?
I.e. is charging a 1kW battery for 1 hour using a 1kW charger equal to 1C?
In that case the 120kW charger charging a 90kW top end Tesla S battery to full in 1 hour would be a 1.3C charge?
(However, all the advice I've read regarding RC batteries is that while you can charge them at more than 1C, doing so will degrade them).
I.e. is charging a 1kW battery for 1 hour using a 1kW charger equal to 1C?
In that case the 120kW charger charging a 90kW top end Tesla S battery to full in 1 hour would be a 1.3C charge?
(However, all the advice I've read regarding RC batteries is that while you can charge them at more than 1C, doing so will degrade them).
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Soldato
Sort of... If you charge any battery in 1 hour, that was a 1C charge.
It's normal to consider current when charging, not power. So my 3Ah quad-copter battery will charge in 1 hour if I put 3A into it. That's 1C. If I put 6A in it'll take 30-minutes and be a 2C charge. The C rating is completely separate from the size of the battery, but it scales perfectly when you need to consider the work you're asking the battery to do. If I had a 30Ah battery I could charge it in an hour but I'd need to push 30A into it, which is a lot, but it's 10 times more battery sharing that load, so it's the same for each individual cell. The same is true for discharging (20C is a fairly normal max discharge rate before damaging cells, but there are much more powerful cells available).
This works in lithium cells up to about 80% charged, then to drive the current into the cell would require the charger to drive a voltage per cell that would make them be on fire (4.28V is about the maximum). So we slow the charge down after that point, which is why your RC pack takes 1 hour an 20 minutes to do a 1C charge.
The Tesla does the same, so the supercharger does 0% to 80% in 40 minutes, that's 2C, quite ordinary in the Lithium world. Then from 80% to 100% takes longer, another 35 minutes.
All models seem to supercharge in the same time, which is probably because Tesla chose to use a 2C charge, I bet the charging stations can do a bit more.
I think we are used to NiCd AA cells taking all night to charge, but they can't safely be charged quicker than about 0.1C unless you have quite smart charge termination, and 1C is the absolute max for them. I've seen some Lithium cells happy with 5C, which would be charging 0% to 80% in less than 10 minutes!
The practical way to use an electric car is to use the Superchargers for long trips and only charge to 80% each time you stop (take 40 minutes for lunch or something then drive another 150~250miles). Then have an electric oven-scale supply at your house that can fill the car overnight, you nether need or want a supercharger at home, do you have a mains petrol supply?
PS. I'm an electronics Engineer and my last job was developing big Lithium batteries to act as compact UPSs that can be built into rackmount servers.
It's normal to consider current when charging, not power. So my 3Ah quad-copter battery will charge in 1 hour if I put 3A into it. That's 1C. If I put 6A in it'll take 30-minutes and be a 2C charge. The C rating is completely separate from the size of the battery, but it scales perfectly when you need to consider the work you're asking the battery to do. If I had a 30Ah battery I could charge it in an hour but I'd need to push 30A into it, which is a lot, but it's 10 times more battery sharing that load, so it's the same for each individual cell. The same is true for discharging (20C is a fairly normal max discharge rate before damaging cells, but there are much more powerful cells available).
This works in lithium cells up to about 80% charged, then to drive the current into the cell would require the charger to drive a voltage per cell that would make them be on fire (4.28V is about the maximum). So we slow the charge down after that point, which is why your RC pack takes 1 hour an 20 minutes to do a 1C charge.
The Tesla does the same, so the supercharger does 0% to 80% in 40 minutes, that's 2C, quite ordinary in the Lithium world. Then from 80% to 100% takes longer, another 35 minutes.
All models seem to supercharge in the same time, which is probably because Tesla chose to use a 2C charge, I bet the charging stations can do a bit more.
I think we are used to NiCd AA cells taking all night to charge, but they can't safely be charged quicker than about 0.1C unless you have quite smart charge termination, and 1C is the absolute max for them. I've seen some Lithium cells happy with 5C, which would be charging 0% to 80% in less than 10 minutes!
The practical way to use an electric car is to use the Superchargers for long trips and only charge to 80% each time you stop (take 40 minutes for lunch or something then drive another 150~250miles). Then have an electric oven-scale supply at your house that can fill the car overnight, you nether need or want a supercharger at home, do you have a mains petrol supply?
PS. I'm an electronics Engineer and my last job was developing big Lithium batteries to act as compact UPSs that can be built into rackmount servers.
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Cool, thanks for that.
My quad batteries get charged at 5a because that's all my charger will do. They are 1300mAh batteries so 5a is just over 3C.
They cost about £8 each though so I'm not concerned about damaging them. A Tesla battery is a whole different league though so damage from charging is more of a concern. Your probably right that 2C is likely a safe compromise rather than the limit.
My quad batteries get charged at 5a because that's all my charger will do. They are 1300mAh batteries so 5a is just over 3C.
They cost about £8 each though so I'm not concerned about damaging them. A Tesla battery is a whole different league though so damage from charging is more of a concern. Your probably right that 2C is likely a safe compromise rather than the limit.
Man of Honour
Looking at charging from another angle - if everyone used an electric car, could the UK's electricity generating and distribution setup handle the increase?
There's also the potential alternative of battery swapping rather than charging. That could be done in as little time as it takes to fill a tank with petrol/diesel. Drive in, swap battery, pay for difference in charge, drive out. Battery from your car charges in the battery station ready to go into another car later and you don't need to care how long the recharging takes. That would require standardised batteries, which isn't likely any time soon, but it's a possibility for the future that would make EVs even more convenient than ICEVs (more convenient because charging would also be an option).
I'm interested in whether Tesla can soon sell an electric car for less then the current cost of the battery alone. It seems a rather ambitious target, but Tesla has met rather ambitious targets before.
There's also the potential alternative of battery swapping rather than charging. That could be done in as little time as it takes to fill a tank with petrol/diesel. Drive in, swap battery, pay for difference in charge, drive out. Battery from your car charges in the battery station ready to go into another car later and you don't need to care how long the recharging takes. That would require standardised batteries, which isn't likely any time soon, but it's a possibility for the future that would make EVs even more convenient than ICEVs (more convenient because charging would also be an option).
I'm interested in whether Tesla can soon sell an electric car for less then the current cost of the battery alone. It seems a rather ambitious target, but Tesla has met rather ambitious targets before.
Soldato
Nope, in winter at peak load, apparently there is less than 10% spare capacity and some coal fired power stations are being closed down.