The Tesla Thread
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Presumably you'd agree that that one of 300+ miles would be even better?
You demonstrated that on a very long journey - that you yourself would presumably admit is a very unlikely trip for most (500miles on a stint, which is what, London to northern Scotland?) - it needs more stops. I'm not disputing that. What about your daily commute to work with the occasional weekend away, which is a more normal use case. For those use cases what the difference then?
Actually pretty sure the magic number was 300+. Hense the reason the Tesla is in a league of its own.
Also worth remembering that the superchargers aren't free any more, which was one of the big positives with them previously.
Anyway, anyone actually considering buying one? If so, which one?
Tempted but not sure I'd be happy enough with the base model without AP and ER. Guess I've got 18months to two years to decide! Maybe they'll be some more results on distance in cold weather that would ease my (perhaps perceived) range anxieties.
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I think anyone considering buying one should be calculating how it would affect them on their usual journeys/realistic use cases based on the way they live and travel to see if/which one is a feasible option.
Even if they don't agree with my opinion that 300 miles of range is a much bigger change over 200 miles of range than just the numbers would suggest, it's still the sensible thing to do.
Soldato
Range generally = more cost. So that's fundamentally the balancing act.
Soldato
What's the cost of a little inconvenience?
For me, a 300+ mile EV is kind of pointless. They come at a premium. I rarely drive hundreds of miles. And I tend to stop every 150-200 miles anyway.
While a Model 3, standard range, would suit me perfectly, I'm unlikely to buy one. The Zoe ZE40 and (I assume) the new Leaf are much cheaper and only mildly inconvenient; making me stop slightly more often than I'd like on rare long journeys.
Cars like the eGolf and 30kWh Leaf are, based on my current experience, too far the other way. Inconvenient to the point of putting me off making long journeys. Everyone has their figure and their own tolerance for inconvenience though. I know people who have done the North Coast 500 in a 24kWh Leaf (bloody lunatics).
Yes, the difference in range is only about 50 miles. But a typical long journey for me would be the 300 miles up to Angus to see family. Ideally I'd stop twice; once for food, once to nip to the loo. The Model 3 could do the journey with just one stop. The ZE40 is borderline tolerable; two 40 minute stops. A 30kWh Leaf would need a third full stop, at least (I wouldn't consider the eGolf due to price).
It's charge rate I'm more interested in TBH. I don't mind stopping every 150 miles if I only have to stop for 10 minutes. It's waiting around on the car charging that gets boring, fast. I've had a Zoe with a 22kW charge rate. Took about an hour every hour of driving. Total pain in the arse outside of regular daily driving.
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Permabanned
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Model 3 is 150 miles in 30 minutes for base model, 170 for the long range one on a super charger. The standard one would be fine for me, would cover my weekly commute just about, but would need to charge it if I planned on going anywhere at the weekend, the long range one would cover everything and need charging once a week on a Sunday.
The difference on a 'long' drive where you will need to stop between the Model 3 and Bolt vs the Leaf and Golf is the former you can stop when you want to charge giving much more flexibility, the latter you have to stop when the car and charger locations dictate it which may not be convenient to you. The amount of time you have to stop in a Bolt would actually be very similar to a Leaf and a Golf over you get over 200 miles where as in a Model 3 that would be greatly reduced due to charging speeds.
I imagine the Ipace when it is finally launched will suffer the same because there are no 100+kw CCS chargers even if the car is capable of it. They are ridiculously expensive so I don't expect Ecotricty to go round upgrading for awhile either. The only places I can see the new CCS chargers getting implemented is in new locations but it would need the manufacturers to pony up the cash. Ecotricity is only what it is (pretty good these days) because Nissan gave them a bunch of money to build out the network.
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Agreed, it will all depend on how much inconvenience people will be willing to put up with and people's personal use cases.
Interesting to hear your take on it, although I'll add to your list, the new eGolf would need two 30 minute stops (100miles of charge in 30 minutes). Not that I'm actually advocating the eGolf - the original point again was that there are broadly equivalent cars that are/will be available way before the Model 3 is available that would suit most people if they aren't interested in the extended range and AP.
It'll be very interesting when the figures start to come out for the Model 3s real world range. Both the Bolt EV and the eGolf appear to have better real world range than their specs, but the Tesla (S at least) appears to get less than the stated range. Add to that the fact that it looks like fuel costs (if fueled up outside the home) are going to be broadly similar to a petrol doing 40-50mpg*. Something to consider when doing the economic maths.
It'll also be interesting to see how much the new Leaf costs, if it has a range of 200-250 miles as predicted I can't see it being particularly cheaper than the base Tesla and Bolt.
*supercharger costs of 20p/kWh as on Teslas website.
Soldato
Exactly, the big range cars always carry that capability and hence the weight and reduced efficiency; that does effect the running costs significantly.
I currently have a 130 litre fuel tank on one of our vehicles and I like my 600mile range thankyouverymuch!
You have a valid point, although what's the weight difference between the extended range and normal range Model 3? I'm guessing the additional running cost will be negligible compared to the initial upfront cost ($8k in this instance), just as a larger/full liquid fuel tank is going to have a negligible extra running cost.
Edit: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S
Looking at the weight numbers on there the added battery is a pretty minimal increase in weight.
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I think you need to check your maths there.
1 Mile at 50mpg with fuel costing £1.16 equates to around £0.11/mile
A model S can easily get 3 miles per kWh costing 20p at a supercharger so around £0.066/mile (roughly half).
You don't even need to add anything extra on for charging efficiency as they measure what the car takes and not what it takes to charge.
At home it's more like £0.13 so £0.043/mile if you have an Eco 7 tariff then its more like £0.06 so around £0.02/mile.
For an ICE to match an EV using the superchargers at 20p/kWh it would need to be averaging 80-90mpg @ £1.16/litre which just isn't going to happen. Fuel price is only going to go one way.
On the other hand if you use say an Ecotricity charger the tariff is £3 + 17p/kWh (unless your a customer and then it is just 17p/kWh) it very much depends on how long you charge. The charger tends to top out at 40kWh.
20 Min charge = 13kWh @ 17p + £3 = £5.21 (ouch). ~£0.13/mile
30 Min charge = 20kWh @ 17p + £3 = £6.40 ~£0.106/mile
40 Min charge = 26kWh @ 17p + £3 = £7.42 ~£0.095/mile
If your a customer is obviously much cheaper, but lets face it your not envisaged to use those weekly let alone daily.
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Permabanned
Who the hell wants a Chevy though?
Golf, Bolt etc just look too boring.
Golf, Bolt etc just look too boring.
I think you need to check your maths there.
1 Mile at 50mpg with fuel costing £1.16 equates to around £0.11/mile
A model S can easily get 3 miles per kWh costing 20p at a supercharger so around £0.066/mile (roughly half).
You don't even need to add anything extra on for charging efficiency as they measure what the car takes and not what it takes to charge.
At home it's more like £0.13 so £0.043/mile if you have an Eco 7 tariff then its more like £0.06 so around £0.02/mile.
For an ICE to match an EV using the superchargers at 20p/kWh it would need to be averaging 80-90mpg @ £1.16/litre which just isn't going to happen. Fuel price is only going to go one way.
On the other hand if you use say an Ecotricity charger the tariff is £3 + 17p/kWh (unless your a customer and then it is just 17p/kWh) it very much depends on how long you charge. The charger tends to top out at 40kWh.
20 Min charge = 13kWh @ 17p + £3 = £5.21 (ouch). ~£0.13/mile
30 Min charge = 20kWh @ 17p + £3 = £6.40 ~£0.106/mile
40 Min charge = 26kWh @ 17p + £3 = £7.42 ~£0.095/mile
If your a customer is obviously much cheaper, but lets face it your not envisaged to use those weekly let alone daily.
Yep, you're right, not sure how I did that! A 50mpg vehicle costs around 9.5p a mile, with the supercharger cost for the Model 3 it would be around 5.7p (60kWh gets you 220 miles). That'll teach me to rush while I'm working.
Next question is how far would you have to drive for the extra cost of getting electricity at chargers to outweigh the extra battery cost.
Outside of the Golf (which just looks like a normal car) all the rest seem designed to look awful. No idea why they insist on doing that.
Edit: it would be around 32,000 miles ion the 13p tariff if the gain was linear, but after working that out I realized it wasn't if the the ER version has a predicted 75kwh battery, which is only 15kwh more but gives you almost an extra 40% range. So the numbers going to be greater than that.
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I wouldn't say the eGolf is ugly. It's a bit shackled to its combustion engine roots, in styling and spec, but it's one of the few EVs that isn't a bit weird looking.
The Bolt is pretty yuck.
The Zoe and Ioniq are nice enough. I kinda like the i3 as well, even if it is a bit odd. The new Leaf though; huge improvement.
https://electrek.co/2017/07/31/next-gen-nissan-leaf-design-revealed/
Only reason I didn't buy a Leaf in the first place was because it looked awful.
The Bolt is pretty yuck.
The Zoe and Ioniq are nice enough. I kinda like the i3 as well, even if it is a bit odd. The new Leaf though; huge improvement.
https://electrek.co/2017/07/31/next-gen-nissan-leaf-design-revealed/
Only reason I didn't buy a Leaf in the first place was because it looked awful.
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Don
That looks alright.
Caporegime
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It bothers me that these won't have a speedometer and binnacle.
Did anyone here put down £1000 for one?
Did anyone here put down £1000 for one?
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