The Tesla Thread

[b0rn2sk8]

With great PR comes greater scrutiny....

I agree with a lot of your points except for one biggie, Tesla doesn't advertise nor market their cars at all, well not in the traditional sense. While every other auto maker spends millions a week on both traditional media and social media. Tesla only just started participating in industry events but it is all very low key compared to the likes of the incumbants who all seem to have a brand new concept that never makes it to market at every event.

The only advertising they do is on their own websites, product launches, a few Youtube video's and Elon's twitter. Tesla gets all of its 'marketing' from owners and perspective owners, mainly on YouTube and word of mouth.

Tesla does have an aura about them, you can liken it to what Apple had before Steve Jobs died (its very much fizzled out since then). But what would you rather have a CEO that is scripted, corporate and essentially invisible or Musk? Just look at Jaguar, they couldn't even get anyone from the company to do their biggest launch for years (iPace) and left it to a comedian that cant drive...

Lets be honest other auto makers are also far from clean, have we forgotten the diesel monkey testing already? Audi and Porsche have just had to recall a further 120k cars because further defeat devices were found. They have stopped deliveries of A6 and A7 models, these are brand new cars 2.5 years on from diesel gate. Whats that all about, do they not learn?

On the other hand you have the media in a frenzy writing nonsense about what comes out of Elon's twitter account, its actually hilarious.

No. The point was that it yet again highlighted how 'Autopilot' is inadequately equipped in terms of making sure that the driver is actually paying attention to the road ahead

Except that is complete nonsense, it was international news DAYS BEFORE it was established if autopilot was even a factor in the crash. There was no indication from the driver, the police or Tesla until it was officially released days after the crash. All the media had was pictures of a Model S impaled into the back of a fire truck at a red light with someone quoted as saying it was going 60mph and the driver had a broken ankle. Meanwhile in the rest of the USA an average of 100 people died on the roads that day....

I agree there was a story after the facts were released but not before...

 

[Lashout_UK]

Except that is complete nonsense, it was international news DAYS BEFORE

I think most stories reported the police investigating Autopilot as a factor initially, regardless of whether it was actually on or off (the driver did tell them it was on at the time, straight out of the gate, IIRC - but I've not looked to see if that was among the initial reports).

You have to remember that this is at a time when at least two agencies are investigating other accidents involving Autopilot-equipped vehicles, so the focus will be on similar incidents.

Sure, other people died on the roads that day – but those stories will similarly have been reported on where relevant and naturally won't be as prominent due to the nature of the incidents themselves.

 

[Lashout_UK]

Just reflecting on some of this...

have we forgotten the diesel monkey testing already?

That's a different kettle of fish compared to a poorly designed and regulated driver 'aid' that can cause accidents and get people killed; obviously it too has potential health implications but at least it doesn't fling your car into oncoming traffic if it misses a white line somewhere along the way, or frequently fails to operate in a safe fashion.

Audi and Porsche have just had to recall a further 120k cars because further defeat devices were found.

Sure, but that's absolutely nothing in terms of numbers. It's not even a month's worth of production from Audi. Tesla didn't even make that many cars in the whole of 2017.

They have stopped deliveries of A6 and A7 models, these are brand new cars 2.5 years on from diesel gate. Whats that all about, do they not learn?

The stoppage is due to the AdBlue system reputedly going into a low consumption mode when the fluid level gets low, so the owner isn't immediately forced into refilling it. While it improves convenience, it results in increased emissions. This is obviously a workaround of sorts (most manufacturers will simply do whatever is necessary to meet targets, overlooking the real-world performance as it wasn't what was tested previously) but not a direct 'cheat' per se, judging by reports so far.

This is perhaps down to the fact that the advancement of regulations surrounding diesel isn't necessarily matched by the ability to justify upping the list prices of cars (to enable the fitment of the technology necessary to meet upcoming regulations). Not something I've looked at closely, though.

On the other hand you have the media in a frenzy writing nonsense about what comes out of Elon's twitter account, its actually hilarious.

If any other company CEO starting ranting on like Musk, they'd be covered as well.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

I think most stories reported the police investigating Autopilot as a factor initially, regardless of whether it was actually on or off (the driver did tell them it was on at the time, straight out of the gate, IIRC - but I've not looked to see if that was among the initial reports).

You have to remember that this is at a time when at least two agencies are investigating other accidents involving Autopilot-equipped vehicles, so the focus will be on similar incidents.

Sure, other people died on the roads that day – but those stories will similarly have been reported on where relevant and naturally won't be as prominent due to the nature of the incidents themselves.

Go back and read the original articles, as you said you didn't. None of them said that autopilot was being investigated by the police and the headlines were (Washington Post, but most articles were a cut and paste) 'Tesla with autopilot slams into firetruck'. With the first line reading:

A Tesla sedan with a semi-autonomous Autopilot feature has rear-ended a fire department truck at 60 mph (97 kph) apparently without braking before impact, but police say it’s unknown if the Autopilot feature was engaged.

The headline is borderline click bait as it infers the car was in auto pilot mode when they did not know or have any indication if it was even a factor. Please tell me how that it is international news?

Just reflecting on some of this...

That's a different kettle of fish compared to a poorly designed and regulated driver 'aid' that can cause accidents and get people killed; obviously it too has potential health implications but at least it doesn't fling your car into oncoming traffic if it misses a white line somewhere along the way.

Sure, but that's absolutely nothing to them – in terms of numbers. It's not even a month's worth of production from Audi. Tesla didn't even make that many cars in the whole of 2017.

The stoppage is due to the AdBlue system reputedly going into a low consumption mode when the fluid level gets low, so the owner isn't immediately forced into refilling it. While it improves convenience, it results in increased emissions. This is obviously a workaround of sorts (most manufacturers will simply do whatever is necessary to meet targets, overlooking the real-world performance as it wasn't what was tested previously) but not a direct 'cheat' per se, judging by reports so far.

If any other company CEO starting ranting on like Musk, they'd be covered as well.

For a start, its the media that say Elon rants or is having a meltdown. Go back to the last earnings call, was that a rant? Far from it but that's not how it was portrayed by the media. Two wall street 'analysts' asked questions that were already answered in the letter to shareholders released the day before so Musk cut them off and called the questions boneheaded (which is fair IMO) and let a YouTuber ask a load of actually quite interesting questions and more information about Tesla future plans/direction was released in response to those questions than any 'analyst' has ever managed. So what did the analysts do in response? throw their toys out of the pram and sell the stock, it dropped for a couple of days before quickly bouncing back to where it was before. The media went into a complete frenzy creating a storm in a tea cup over nothing.

Who cares if that's only a small amount of production for VW? The point is they are still producing cars with 'defeat devices' 2.5 YEARS after diesel gate and poor air quality does result in an early deaths for hundreds of thousands of people in the EU every year. 500,000 in 2014 to be more accurate and vehicle emissions contribute greatly to this, especially in cities.

If you think auto pilot is so poor why are you not also attacking GM and Nissan who are running a similar system on their cars? The Nissan driver attention detection system is essentially the same. In almost all of the crashes with involving autopilot it has been the driver not paying attention that has been the major contributor rather than the system its self. Frankly if someone is going to text and drive (which happens all the time, autopilot or not) I would rather they had a system like auto pilot that could potentially act than nothing at all.

Citation is also needed for your claims of it flinging you into oncoming traffic.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

Tesla does have an aura about them, you can liken it to what Apple had before Steve Jobs died (its very much fizzled out since then). But what would you rather have a CEO that is scripted, corporate and essentially invisible or Musk? Just look at Jaguar, they couldn't even get anyone from the company to do their biggest launch for years (iPace) and left it to a comedian that cant drive...

Its different when someone is employed to run a company rather than a founder CEO. Musk is hardly slick when it comes to the public speaking anyway.
Ironically the Jack Whitehall odd ball choice ties well into the Waymo contract - IPACE with no drivers! Plus Ian Callum was there

 

[Lashout_UK]

Go back and read the original articles,

I read stories published before that, on the 11th. Like this one: http://kutv.com/news/local/police-investigate-tesla-model-s-crash-on-bangerter-highway

The headline is borderline click bait as it infers the car was in auto pilot mode when they did not know or have any indication if it was even a factor. Please tell me how that it is international news?

I don't think there's much point discussing one outlet's preference for headlines, really – especially given that earlier stories weren't referencing it (and again, it's in the news – so it's going to be a focal point).

Again, I think this is partly due to the terrible way the system and its capabilities are advertised – unless someone really looks at it, few understand how it works or what it can do.

If a Mercedes had a similar system with similar foibles, it'd similarly be under the gun. Volvo's experienced similar, when its tech demonstrations have gone wrong. Hell, other OEMs are often on the receiving end of poorly judged headlines. Same ol'...

For a start, its the media that say Elon rants or is having a meltdown.

Joe Bloggs on Twitter can clearly see he's having a rant, no questions about that. Have you looked at his timeline recently?

Go back to the last earnings call, was that a rant?

Well, if we're going to, no – as you say, that was just a stupid thing to do. But again, it showed Musk's inability to deal with more pressing, serious questions. The reason he engaged with the YouTuber was it was all stuff he could easily respond to and make Tesla look good with. Not answering more serious questions like, well, how many people have bailed out of Model 3 reservations.

You have to remember that this was an earnings call meeting, where's he's expected to answer analysts' questions. Sure, something may have been down on paper – but will he say the same thing? A journalist's job is to ask those questions and press those involved for more.

Of course people are going to baulk when an exec behaves like that. Similarly, stock volatility's nothin' new. Nothin' really remarkable about that.

The point is they are still producing cars with 'defeat devices' 2.5 YEARS after diesel gate and poor air quality does result in an early deaths

Yes, and I acknowledged that – but the current issue, as mentioned, isn't necessarily a defeat device in the previous sense, just a potentially misconstrued effort to save some inconvenience for the owner. Time will tell.

If you think auto pilot is so poor why are you not also attacking GM and Nissan who are running a similar system on their cars? The Nissan driver attention detection system is essentially the same. In almost all of the crashes with involving autopilot it has been the driver not paying attention that has been the major contributor rather than the system its self. Frankly if someone is going to text and drive (which happens all the time, autopilot or not) I would rather they had a system like auto pilot that could potentially act than nothing at all.

Oh, that's easy – because GM's system is far more advanced on the safety front than Autopilot (and overall, generally regarded to outperform Autopilot point blank). For one thing, it actively monitor's the driver's vision to make sure they're paying attention to the road to specifically avoid the issues that are often experienced by Autopilot users in Tesla.

Similarly, Nissan's ProPilot is just an advanced adaptive cruise/lane keeping assistance system – you have to keep your hands on the wheel and pay attention to the road ahead (IIRC), so you don't get the issues of people pretending the car's doing it all for them.

Citation is also needed for your claims of it flinging you into oncoming traffic.

No citation needed; I've had a Model S try to do a 90-degree turn into another lane, among other 'interesting' things. It's pretty shonky when it wants to be. Usually when you least expect it.

 

[Amp34]

I agree with a lot of your points except for one biggie, Tesla doesn't advertise nor market their cars at all, well not in the traditional sense. While every other auto maker spends millions a week on both traditional media and social media. Tesla only just started participating in industry events but it is all very low key compared to the likes of the incumbants who all seem to have a brand new concept that never makes it to market at every event.

The only advertising they do is on their own websites, product launches, a few Youtube video's and Elon's twitter. Tesla gets all of its 'marketing' from owners and perspective owners, mainly on YouTube and word of mouth.

Tesla does have an aura about them, you can liken it to what Apple had before Steve Jobs died (its very much fizzled out since then). But what would you rather have a CEO that is scripted, corporate and essentially invisible or Musk? Just look at Jaguar, they couldn't even get anyone from the company to do their biggest launch for years (iPace) and left it to a comedian that cant drive...

PR is not only about physical adverts commissioned by the company. You just listed several of the ways Tesla use PR to their advantage right there. Big product launches, Musks Twitter, Youtube to name just a few.

Your example of Apple is a good example, and one (of several) I was thinking about when writing that post. They have the same love/hate groups, especially when Jobs was around (to the point the "cult of Jobs" is a thing), the same massive PR based events etc etc.

I'm not saying its a bad thing. In fact its a great way of advertising without having to pay large sums for traditional adverts. The issue is it can backfire in some ways, especially if there's too much hype, and the product is delayed/not exactly as described (even if the description is only in the minds of those want it/or what the media portray, rather than what the company actually said).

Lets be honest other auto makers are also far from clean, have we forgotten the diesel monkey testing already? Audi and Porsche have just had to recall a further 120k cars because further defeat devices were found. They have stopped deliveries of A6 and A7 models, these are brand new cars 2.5 years on from diesel gate. Whats that all about, do they not learn?

On the other hand you have the media in a frenzy writing nonsense about what comes out of Elon's twitter account, its actually hilarious.

I don't disagree at all, the difference is most of those companies don't have the same aura about them and are generally more mundane, no major delays, but also no big "launches".

 

[Lashout_UK]

Yeah but all these 'traditional' car makers have been too scared to disable the safety nannies which let's face it hinder from the relaxation of the operation.

Shock as manufacturer sells product that's safe and functions as intended! You'll be telling me they shouldn't be selling them with the ABS activated next...

Tesla can in effect claim a level 3 autonomous driving whilst in reality having the same safety requirements as level 2.

Telsa can claim that all it wants but the reality is its system is level 2. The only car that's at level 3 (and that's claimed) is is the A8.

It's actually really clever if a little risky from their side

It's not clever or risky. It's an improperly specified and mislabelled system, being tested on the customers, and the capabilities of it aren't properly broadcast to consumers – resulting in incidents and deaths.

Just look at how Tesla talk about their system vs other car makers, in the same breadth as they say 'assist' they mention it'll all be upgradable to fully autonomous (which... seems hopeful?).

We're a long way from full autonomy. There will have to be substantial work done to the infrastructure and drastic shifts in car use (such as removing every manually operated car from the road) before that day ever comes.

Even the name autopilot implies a lvl3 (maybe 4 depending on how you define it) automation which isn't what's on offer at the moment.

Precisely, which is one of the reasons it's so problematic and causes so much fuss in the media. It's not level 3, or even near level 4 (no one is). Both Cadillac and Audi's systems have several considerable edge over Tesla's set-up, as they sit, but whether they can capitalise on that remains to be seen.

I'm not saying Autopilot is inherently awful or not innovative – but just that it needs better safety systems, more thorough development and better communication to buyers. I've had several 'moments' using it but, yes, have otherwise enjoyed using it – but I always pay attention while using it and am always ready to take back control; it's a hazard, otherwise.

 

[sesevans]

Tesla settles class action lawsuit over "dangerous" Autopilot: Reuters

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-t...over-dangerous-autopilot-system-idUKKCN1IQ1SR

 

[Mr Jack]

Oops. Now Autopilot has hit a stationary police car.

Cue more whining about the media covering Tesla.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

#whitecarsmatter

 

[jpaul]

re-posting

 

[Mr Jack]

Per your link, they don't yet know if autopilot was engaged...

"The driver suffered minor injuries and told police she was using the car's driver-assisting Autopilot mode."

You saying they're lying?

 

[sesevans]

.......

Telsa can claim that all it wants but the reality is its system is level 2. The only car that's at level 3 (and that's claimed) is is the A8...

We're a long way from full autonomy. There will have to be substantial work done to the infrastructure and drastic shifts in car use (such as removing every manually operated car from the road) before that day ever comes....

Precisely, which is one of the reasons it's so problematic and causes so much fuss in the media. It's not level 3, or even near level 4 (no one is). Both Cadillac and Audi's systems have several considerable edge over Tesla's set-up, as they sit, but whether they can capitalise on that remains to be seen....

I'm not saying Autopilot is inherently awful or not innovative – but just that it needs better safety systems, more thorough development and better communication to buyers. .

Have been following your thread about Autopilot with interest. In this thread though you make a couple of statements about autonomy which I believe need to be clarified. While I agree that Tesla's Autopilot is regarded as Level 2 on the 5 Levels of autonomy, you state that no one has achieved Level 4. Perhaps you mean achieved Level 4 and is selling the vehicle to members of the public?

Waymo has achieved Level 4 in ride hailing. Currently it is employing Level 4 autonomous vehicles in its Early Rider programme in Chandler, a suburb of Phoenix Arizona. This programme was started last year and allows some members of the public to ride share their fleet of Chrysler Pacifica SUVs with no safety driver in the front seat. Waymo has received approval to begin a commercial service of these vehicles in Phoenix and stated it will start to offer it to all members of the public later this year. It has ordered "thousands" of Pacifica SUVs and will run the programme using a newly designed app (Uber style). In case you missed it, there is a very funny ad recently released to make members of the public less fearful about Waymo's Level 4 self driving vehicles coming soon. Waymo teamed with Jimmy Kimmel, the tv personality, and Jimmy's friend Guillermo, to make this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6twRCBtd-g

Where I certainly agree with you is on your comment about Level 5 autonomy being some years off. Waymo's Level 4 programme uses HD maps that are geo-fenced to the Phoenix area. Waymo plans to take this programme to many more cities that will first be geo-fenced with their maps. It will supplement their thousands of Pacifica SUVs with the 20,000 Jaguar i-Pace EVs purchased over the next two years. Concerning Level 5 autonomy, you might know that Waymo's sister company, Sidewalk Labs plans to provide an interesting implementation of a smart city in the Eastern Waterfront area of Toronto. Sidewalk Labs is currently negotiating with Waterfront Toronto and is in consultation with members of the public about implementation. If successful, the smart city will be built from the "internet up". Issues to be resolved with Waterfront Toronto include who owns the data collected in this smart city and how it will be utilised. I believe that a Level 5 implementation is possible in such a redesigned city. If successful it could be implemented in other cities too. But as you say we are talking some years away.

Two final points:
1. Did you notice that Uber's CEO yesterday confirmed that they are in talks with Waymo about having Waymo place its self driving vehicles into the Uber network? Uber's own self driving tests are suspended following the fatality in Tempe, Arizona. Waymo's non-exclusive deal with Lyft means that Waymo could do this if terms are agreed.
2. Softbank of Japan has invested $ 2.3 billion in General Motors' self driving vehicle unit, Cruise Automation, which like Waymo is seeking to develop and bring to market a ride hailing service with a Level 4 degree of autonomy. Cruise is generally considered further behind Waymo but provides strong competition to what Tesla brings out in due course.

 

[VincentHanna]

I do think things like this are impressive though:

Consumer Reports said Wednesday it now recommends the Tesla Model 3, reversing an earlier decision over the car's long stopping distance and other issues. The group said Tesla's ability to fix the issue with a remote software update was a first for a carmaker.

Tesla improved the car's braking distance by about 20 feet through a remote software update, placing the car within the typical stopping distance for its class, the group said. Consumer Reports had previously said the Model 3 had the longest stopping distance of any contemporary car it tested, including the much larger Ford F-150 full-size pickup.

It is not unusual for an automaker to make changes to a vehicle in response to criticism from Consumer Reports, but it is unique that Tesla was able to address this problem with an over-the-air update, Consumer Reports director of automotive testing Jake Fisher told CNBC.


"This really is an industry first," Fisher said.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/30/tes...r-braking-update-shares-hit-session-high.html

 

[lordrobs]

I do think things like this are impressive though:



https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/30/tes...r-braking-update-shares-hit-session-high.html

At what cost though? I mean Tesla didn't go out of its way to make the braking of its car underperform and a firmware update isn't going to physically improve the brakes (obviously) so what is the consequence of what they've done? Less regen with more use of the physical brakes? More regen?

As for the autopilot feature that gets so much press, IMHO it needs switching off until it can do what it states i.e. automatically control the car. By naming it after the system used on aircraft which, funnily enough, does exactly what it says on the tin they are causing these accidents where its use is a factor. Either that or they need to rebrand it as what it actually is "kind of self driving but you still actually need to be ready to make the decisions (beta test)"... maybe their marketing team can come up with a slightly snappier title

 

[VincentHanna]

Does it say exactly what it says on the tin though?

Autopilot on a plane doesn't control the entire journey from taxi-ing, take-off and landing.

 

[Mr Jack]

I think Level 2 automation is inherently dangerous and should be heavily legislated. Tesla's system isn't just dangerous because of its failures or naming; it's dangerous because it encourages inattention whilst not permitting it to be safe. All Level 2 systems will do this.