The Tesla Thread

Does it say exactly what it says on the tin though?

Autopilot on a plane doesn't control the entire journey from taxi-ing, take-off and landing.
It also doesn't have a habit of randomly slamming planes into solid objects and doesn't have the caveat that the pilot must still give the plane 100% concentration all the time.

Allowing a vehicle on the public roads to make decisions without human interaction and making that available to Joe Public with a software that Tesla themselves say is beta software is IMO ridiculous. You can't simply say "but we told you to pay attention" because people are thick and some will jump in the passenger seat on the motorway 'because autopilot innit'.
 
Tesla P85D is one awsome car, you cant comment unless you own and drive one, free supercharging for life, and so many have the electric phobia of running out of charge. next year when diesel hits £1.50 ltr and petrol not far behind i will be super charging my car while i have a coffee. as for auto pilot it performs very well, how many cars with the auto park feature have hit a wall or another car? lots of them. and mostly driver error engaging and disconnecting it while in park mode.
if you expect autopilot to drive you down country lanes then forget it. do 65mph down the motorway and its fine. Most of the idiots out there are trying to get it to make a mistake so they can have a glorified utube on it dissing the car. What they fail to tell you is how many times they switch it on off on off trying to make it go wrong. wasnt that long ago cruise control was slammed saying it could get a fault and run away with you, what if it didnt switch off when braking.
sure enough you had the idiots trying that to. the tesla car is an inovation that makes gas guzzling cars a thing of the past. With the new nissan leaf with the LG battery coming late this year with 200 mile rage it puts the small electric car into many households, it can also take 120kw charge reducing charge times. The electric car, like the electric train is the future like it or not. the tesla P85D is one awsome car to drive.
 
Actually that's really all we need to know. If they had data that showed that their autopilot was making cars safer you can bet they would release it.
agree - they would refute accusations if they could, although, if the data is not statisitically significant that might be hard to explain to the public.

Are the insurance companies also party to this data ? (unless Carlsberg/Tesla do car insurance themslevs) the insurance companies must want to know whether Autopilot was implicated in accidents, and if their data said it was problematic they could make restrictions on policies.

The shadow that bad data will cast on Waymo/lvl4 legislation too, waymo seem to have remained impartial on Tesla autopilot, unlike their CEO's (maybe flippant) comment about the Uber software.
 
And you’ve touched on the biggest issue with EV penetration, something many EV commenters on green car websites fail to see when they complain about the “legacy” car industry still releasing hydrocarbon fuelled cars. Cost.

The biggest issue is going to be price, even if the Teslarati prediction of battery supply shortages for non Tesla’s does not come true. £30k+ for a hatchback (the leaf) and £40+k for a saloon (Model 3) is not affordable for the majority of households. Even a 25-30% reduction in price over the next 5-10 years is not going to put it within reach of most households. Yes, there’s used vehicles but unless depreciation continues to be higher for EVs that will have a knock on price for used vehicles as well.

The second car market may potentially be better served, but people are going to have to get over range anxiety and be happy enough to have a second car that can only really be used for short daily commutes, while essentially paying up front for the fuel charges they may save in the future.

Government incentives (where available) are definitely helping reduce the gap between ICE prices and EV but they can only go on for so long and are generally not removing the gap. Until prices come down - perhaps when there’s more competition, but I’m not sure if competition is going to make much difference at the moment, it’s largely tech costs - EVs are still going to be a niche product affordable by those in the upper income brackets, those that justify more expensive cars and those that stretch their income to buy one for environmental reasons.

However, even with all that, for some unless there’s a step change in tech and range ICE/Hybrid vehicles are going to be the only option for at least one car in a household. Not as much of an issue in the UK, but elsewhere in the world where distances are larger and/or weather less clement. For those, they’ll not move to EV for probably at least 20 years, even if they have above average income.

Edit: by niche I don’t necessarily mean a very low percentage of vehicle sales (ie 1-2%), just way off the majority of sales, leaving people like Vapor to reap the benefits of the reduced fuel costs an EV can provide.
 
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agree - they would refute accusations if they could, although, if the data is not statisitically significant that might be hard to explain to the public.

Are the insurance companies also party to this data ? (unless Carlsberg/Tesla do car insurance themslevs) the insurance companies must want to know whether Autopilot was implicated in accidents, and if their data said it was problematic they could make restrictions on policies.

The shadow that bad data will cast on Waymo/lvl4 legislation too, waymo seem to have remained impartial on Tesla autopilot, unlike their CEO's (maybe flippant) comment about the Uber software.

Interestingly Tesla’s are more expensive to insure in the US than pretty much any other vehicles. That said there’s no public data as to why, but the consensus is because of the lack of dealer network and increased cost of repair over equivalent cars, rather than safety.
 
Teslas have a lot of cameras, so I guess if they get damaged it's more expensive to repair than a car without that stuff.

All cars are getting more expensive to repair though due to all the technology on board now.
 
They can’t get bits either so protracted drawn out repairs that get you in a hire car are no surprises that the policies are higher cost.
 
And you’ve touched on the biggest issue with EV penetration, something many EV commenters on green car websites fail to see when they complain about the “legacy” car industry still releasing hydrocarbon fuelled cars. Cost.

The biggest issue is going to be price, even if the Teslarati prediction of battery supply shortages for non Tesla’s does not come true. £30k+ for a hatchback (the leaf) and £40+k for a saloon (Model 3) is not affordable for the majority of households. Even a 25-30% reduction in price over the next 5-10 years is not going to put it within reach of most households. Yes, there’s used vehicles but unless depreciation continues to be higher for EVs that will have a knock on price for used vehicles as well.

I don't disagree that that EV's are more expensive to buy but your not taking into account that they currently much cheaper to run than an ICE car once you have it in your hands. Fuel and servicing costs are greatly reduced. The increasing cost of fuel (filled up at £1.30/litre today) only helps the total cost of ownership calculation for an EV, but education on this matter is generally pretty poor, hardly anyone even thinks about total cost of ownership when making purchasing decisions. Just look at mobile phones, its often cheaper to buy a phone full price at launch and buy service separately than it is buying it bundled from a network. But hardly anyone does it.

Also you can get in a Leaf for £25k at the moment and the Model 3 will be below well £40k for the base model in the UK based on current prices. Even taking a poor retail exchange rate any of us can get it comes in at less than £35.5k before any EV incentive. ($35k/1.302+ 10% Tariff + VAT = £35,483.87).

The second car market may potentially be better served, but people are going to have to get over range anxiety and be happy enough to have a second car that can only really be used for short daily commutes, while essentially paying up front for the fuel charges they may save in the future.
Agreed, apart from the second car thing. Hardly anyone routinely drives more than 100 miles in a day, the stats very much back this up.

Government incentives (where available) are definitely helping reduce the gap between ICE prices and EV but they can only go on for so long and are generally not removing the gap. Until prices come down - perhaps when there’s more competition, but I’m not sure if competition is going to make much difference at the moment, it’s largely tech costs - EVs are still going to be a niche product affordable by those in the upper income brackets, those that justify more expensive cars and those that stretch their income to buy one for environmental reasons.
Agreed the incentives can only go for so long, I don't think we are going to get price parity with EV and ICE for a long time especially at the cheap end of the market. But the increasing cost of fuel and the drive for lower emissions will only push EV adoption. There are also other technologies like solar and storage that will increase the demand. In reality the the UK and the US are well behind on EV adoption, look at the stats in places like China and Norway.

However, even with all that, for some unless there’s a step change in tech and range ICE/Hybrid vehicles are going to be the only option for at least one car in a household. Not as much of an issue in the UK, but elsewhere in the world where distances are larger and/or weather less clement. For those, they’ll not move to EV for probably at least 20 years, even if they have above average income.
I really doubt we are going to get a step change in technology anytime soon but what will make the difference is regulation and the general will to stop burning fossil fuels. I also think the adoption rate for single car people as you describe will be much faster then 20 years (2038), bare in mind ICE cars and possibly hybrids (not yet confirmed but rumoured) will be band just 2 years later. No one is going to want to buy an ICE in 2035 let alone 2038, the residuals will be horrible. The new Leaf for instance will be suitable for the majority of car owners in the UK now let alone what will be available in 2025.
 
I don't disagree that that EV's are more expensive to buy but your not taking into account that they currently much cheaper to run than an ICE car once you have it in your hands. Fuel and servicing costs are greatly reduced. The increasing cost of fuel (filled up at £1.30/litre today) only helps the total cost of ownership calculation for an EV, but education on this matter is generally pretty poor, hardly anyone even thinks about total cost of ownership when making purchasing decisions. Just look at mobile phones, its often cheaper to buy a phone full price at launch and buy service separately than it is buying it bundled from a network. But hardly anyone does it.

Also you can get in a Leaf for £25k at the moment and the Model 3 will be below well £40k for the base model in the UK based on current prices. Even taking a poor retail exchange rate any of us can get it comes in at less than £35.5k before any EV incentive. ($35k/1.302+ 10% Tariff + VAT = £35,483.87).

I was taking fuel and other prices into consideration in that, one of the reasons I mentioned 25-30% reduction. It's also worth considering that unless you're financing or leasing the additional upfront cost may be hard to swallow for he average car buyer (again, not you're £50k+ car buyer but you're average car buyer looking for something in the region of £20k-30k max).

To use the Leaf as an example, it starts at a smidge under £30K (ignoring the incentive that brings it down to just over £25k for the moment). The equivalent ICE is the Pulsar which starts at £14k. That's around £15k difference, which works out as around 150k miles to break even with free electricity and todays fuel prices (double check my maths there, I could be wrong on the specifics). For most people, without incentives it's never going to make economic sense at the moment and even with incentives where they are available it only starts to break even over a reasonable time frame. There are plenty of places outside the UK that don't have any incentive, hence why I'm quoting prices without any specific incentive (and for the reasons discussed in the other part of the discussion).

Regarding the Tesla, I chose £40k+ because currently there is no evidence the base model 3 is going to be available for quite a while, possibly even by release in the UK, not that the specific price is totally relevant.

Agreed, apart from the second car thing. Hardly anyone routinely drives more than 100 miles in a day, the stats very much back this up.

Not day to day, but a significant proportion of the population do on a semi regular basis, families going on holiday is one example. Without a wholesale change in attitude to car ownership (renting a longer range vehicle a few times a year for example) the shorter range vehicles are only really going to be used as a second car for the majority of families. Like today it's likely most will have/want the 200+ mile leaf, Tesla, iPace equivalents as their main vehicle and the Zoe equivalents as their secondary vehicle.

Agreed the incentives can only go for so long, I don't think we are going to get price parity with EV and ICE for a long time especially at the cheap end of the market. But the increasing cost of fuel and the drive for lower emissions will only push EV adoption. There are also other technologies like solar and storage that will increase the demand. In reality the the UK and the US are well behind on EV adoption, look at the stats in places like China and Norway.

I really doubt we are going to get a step change in technology anytime soon but what will make the difference is regulation and the general will to stop burning fossil fuels. I also think the adoption rate for single car people as you describe will be much faster then 20 years (2038), bare in mind ICE cars and possibly hybrids (not yet confirmed but rumoured) will be band just 2 years later. No one is going to want to buy an ICE in 2035 let alone 2038, the residuals will be horrible. The new Leaf for instance will be suitable for the majority of car owners in the UK now let alone what will be available in 2025.

I agree, legislation and possible fuel price increases will certainly drive EV adoption, along with reduction in price (at least the aforementioned 20-30% so it makes economic sense over a reasonable timeframe, like solar now). Norway is a bit of an outlier, in part because of government incentives for EV's but also because ICE cars are about 30% more expensive there to begin with, reducing the price differential in a country with a much higher average income.

I hope so, but realistically how soon are reasonably priced large SUV/4x4 EV's with 300-400+ mile range in snow and -30 temperatures going to come out? Unlikely in the next 10 years at least. The stop gap is likely to be hybrids of some form as the tech/price just isn't there. Note I didn't say a single car household, but one car in that type of household (the other vehicle could easily be anormal EV).

Again, I'm not suggesting EV's aren't going to take off, or possibly be the majority of vehicles in 20 years time, but a pure EV world is unfortunately going to be a long time coming because of cost for a lot of people, especially the lower end of the market as you mention, and to a lesser extent just because they aren't going to be available for some time to come for every niche. Manufacturers are going to be making ICE related vehicles for a long time to come.*

All that will be redundant if we can significantly reduce the cost of EV vehicles in the nearish future. We can only hope!

*This is certainly something governments need to consider more seriously because at the moment those on higher incomes are benefitting from a significantly lower tax burden due to being able to afford an EV. In 10-20 years if the government increases tax on fuel, without increasing the tax burden on electricity then its going to impact lower income groups disproportionately.
 
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agree - they would refute accusations if they could, although, if the data is not statisitically significant that might be hard to explain to the public.

Are the insurance companies also party to this data ? (unless Carlsberg/Tesla do car insurance themslevs) the insurance companies must want to know whether Autopilot was implicated in accidents, and if their data said it was problematic they could make restrictions on policies.

The shadow that bad data will cast on Waymo/lvl4 legislation too, waymo seem to have remained impartial on Tesla autopilot, unlike their CEO's (maybe flippant) comment about the Uber software.

Tesla do not self-insure their vehicles. In the UK I noticed they have partnered with Direct Line so I assume that they are sharing data with them.

https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/support/insuremytesla

On the Autonomous Vehicle thread we have discussed Tesla Autopilot at some length and I for one believe it is not in the same category as Waymo's Level 4 self driving vehicle "driver". At best Tesla's Autopilot is a Level 2 solution no matter what data Tesla reveals. Waymo's CEO has said publicly that because Autopilot is Level 2, it is the driver's responsibility to maintain control of the vehicle at all time.

By the way I am not familiar with "Iv/14".

The differences between an Autopilot crash and fatality and the Uber self driving vehicle fatality in Tempe Arizona seems quite big to me. The Uber fatality can be blamed on their software and hardware and how this "driver" was programmed. A Tesla Autopilot crash is mostly the fault of the human driver because to rely on it completely displays poor judgement by the human driver.
 
Musk has basically said that full automation that's better than a human is 3 years away for Tesla, so I don't think you can convincingly argue that naming their driver assist 'auto pilot's is encouraging people to sit in the back thinking the car can do everything.

Those people are just really stupid.
 
Interestingly Tesla’s are more expensive to insure in the US than pretty much any other vehicles. That said there’s no public data as to why, but the consensus is because of the lack of dealer network and increased cost of repair over equivalent cars, rather than safety.

interesting - I had forgotten this component as someone remarked

As I said in the other thread about this, I imagine the crashes will actually help you with rates. Insurance cares about the replacement cost, but the bigger factor is injuries. Someone getting hurt in a crash can cost way more than a Model 3. So if they find that claims decrease with this car, so will rates.

(... vincent how much did your cyclist claim)


edit
By the way I am not familiar with "Iv/14"
lvl is an abbreviation for level
 
Interesting bit of research from an analytical company about Model 3 reservations.

https://insideevs.com/23-percent-tesla-model-3-reservations-refunded/

About 23% of the reservations (in the US) for the Model 3 have been refunded, a significant number of them in the last month or so. The suggestion being the never ending wait for the $35k version is putting a lot of people off, especially as it looks like the $7,500 incentive may well be gone by the time it becomes available.

I also wonder if it's also because of the competition becoming fiercer. I can't be one of the only one that was interested in a Model 3, even though it wasn't an ideal form factor. I'm guessing there are a fair few getting a refund either in the hope the Y is announced and available in a year or two, or because they're interested in an SUV/crossover from another manufacturer.

I'm also guessing there are also a lot of people hoping they would be in the financial position to purchase one, but then found they weren't when their time came.

It will be interesting to see if that trend continues, and if Tesla release the conversion rate from deposit to sales. Did they when they announced the 12% refunds last year?
 
Not sure there is anything to read into that, the waiting list has actually increased despite the number of refunds according to the article.

Given the fact that people were asked to drop £1000 on a car they had never seen or driven it’s a bit of a stretch not to expect a decent number of cancellations.

Some of those will have been converted to new or used model s/x cars. Many can’t wait for the car to actually arrive. Some can’t afford it without a huge incentive. Some would have straight up got caught up in the hype. Some will be looking for something that isn’t a ‘sedan’.

The one thing I am sure it’s not is competition from other EVs. The bolt has a year waiting list in Canada and US states that are not the ‘EV’ states. The leaf and Zoe has good availability but range is poor. The Ionic cant get the batteries and is not really available right now. The e-golf has been discontinued and is now end of life pending replacement and the range isn’t great for the money. The i-Pace, S and X are just in another league in terms of price.

What alternative is there to buy right now (ICE aside)?
 
interesting - I had forgotten this component as someone remarked



(... vincent how much did your cyclist claim)


edit lvl is an abbreviation for level

It seems it may be a combination of both - repair costs and accident rate.

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/06/0...dents-tesla-model-s-most-expensive-to-insure/

Helge Leiro Baastad, CEO of Gjensidige — one of Norway’s largest insurance agencies — tells Bergens Tidende that hybrid and electric cars are involved in more accidents than conventional cars, which in Norway usually means cars with diesel engines. His company has looked at the stats from several thousand accidents that occurred between 2012 and 2017.

“In addition to being involved in 20% more accidents, material damage is 50% higher with electric and hybrid cars,” he says. And why would that be? “These car types are used extensively in close traffic. They drive in and out of collective field and may be more exposed. Our main point is that horsepower takes life. If a family mum or father who has driven a diesel car gets a much stronger hybrid car, then the accident risk is increased significantly.”

20% more accidents for various reasons. Presumably as people start to understand how the power delivery is different to an ICE, and more everyday vehicles come out with more normal acceleration times the accident rate will decrease.

Not sure there is anything to read into that, the waiting list has actually increased despite the number of refunds according to the article.

Given the fact that people were asked to drop £1000 on a car they had never seen or driven it’s a bit of a stretch not to expect a decent number of cancellations.

Some of those will have been converted to new or used model s/x cars. Many can’t wait for the car to actually arrive. Some can’t afford it without a huge incentive. Some would have straight up got caught up in the hype. Some will be looking for something that isn’t a ‘sedan’.

The one thing I am sure it’s not is competition from other EVs. The bolt has a year waiting list in Canada and US states that are not the ‘EV’ states. The leaf and Zoe has good availability but range is poor. The Ionic cant get the batteries and is not really available right now. The e-golf has been discontinued and is now end of life pending replacement and the range isn’t great for the money. The i-Pace, S and X are just in another league in terms of price.

What alternative is there to buy right now (ICE aside)?

The waiting list hasn't, according to those charts. The last time we got any official numbers was last year was it not? See April vs march for example, not only has the number of reservation holders gone down, but the number of reservation and delivered has gone down too. Assuming their figures are correct, they're basing it off anonomised credit card info.

I'd love to know how many had a deposit down for a $35k car, and then decided to get a $60k+ vehicle instead (as you subsequently point out). I'm sure there are a few, but it's probably not a significant number.

And no, there is competition. If you're planning on buying a $35k+ vehicle and have waited for a year or more already another year isn't going to kill you. There are a myriad of SUV/crossovers going to be available in the next year or two, it's not just about now, as I said in my previous post. it's worth noting Musk also semi announced the announcement date of the Y recently too, which may have some affect, it's not just non Tesla vehicles competing.
 
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