The Windows 8 Thread

[NathanE]

Here is another telling quote:

"Next, a C++ Metro application will still load Win32 DLLs such as kernel32 and ntdll. Moreover, the WinRT APIs call into the Win32 DLLs – so they are not a replacement but rather a wrapper, an API flavor, on top of Win32. (Historical note: Windows used to have a feature called “environment subsystems”, which can be roughly described as API flavors. WinRT is not an environment subsystem – it is a library on top of the Win32 environment subsystem.)"

That is interesting. I had assumed WinRT was just a new subsystem in Windows. Like how OS/2 was just a subsystem in NT. And how Services for Unix is a subsystem. Seems not. WinRT uses the usual Win32 subsystem and in fact actually wraps it, in some places. Whilst also adding new exclusive functionality (e.g. sensors, geolocation etc).

 

[ng93]

@NathanE nice find, that is indeed interesting.

As has already said, if people thought like you then we'd still be using Win 3.1 UI, or are you suggesting that the current desktop/start bar paradigm is the be all and end all of human/computer interaction?...

You seem closed minded, just because somethings new and shiny does not make it better.

All i'm saying is that for a lot of users Explorer in Windows 8 is more productive than Metro in Windows 8. At some point Microsoft will no doubt come up with a new UI for these users or modify the Metro UI, so that Explorer is no longer as productive as the alternative. And when this happens i'll stop using Explorer and start using the new UI.

Basically I use whatever is the most productive environment. Currently this is a desktop PC with a keyboard and mouse running the latest version of Explorer. After watching the keynotes and using the developer preview I don't think Windows 8 will change that (and judging by what was shown off and said in the day 1 keynote I think Microsoft agree).

Obviously all the above apply's to content producers. As a consumer I actually prefer Metro over Explorer...

 

[Amp34]

Think more along the lines of:

1. sit down at desk

2. place tablet PC into a docking pad which lays flat on the table. Tablet PC optionally doubles up as your "keyboard", if you either don't have one, the one available looks a bit "scummy" (i.e. you're hot desking) or you just don't do enough typing to warrant using a real one.

3. two or three large monitors come to life after docking, with a Windows desktop on them (not Metro). One monitor perhaps has a higher resolution clone of what the tablet screen is showing.

4. use the tablet to access your Metro apps, surf the web, check e-mail etc.

5. use the mouse to use your CAD / Photoshop / Visual Studio etc big apps.

This sounds like the future to me. Can't wait TBH?

Exactly, it's something we've been suggesting for a couple of months and such an excellent opportunity.

At the moment people have a laptop, desktop and tablet (with mobile OS). For most all can be scrapped and instead just have a tablet running Win8.

For example you buy a 10-12 inch tablet that you use to browse the web and do any work you want to do on the train to and from work or on the sofa. If you need to type you attack the keyboard dock (like the current transformer. If you want to get properly productive you stick it on the dock on your desk (or beside your chair) and it automagically connects the keyboard, mouse and proper monitor/projector allowing you to carry on with a proper desktop experience. All your work and entertainment in one place, no need to keep syncing different devices together to keep up with the latest music etc.

I'm hoping (and expecting due to a couple of leaks) MS stick kinect into the centre of this build. It's probably not going to be great for desktop use but just think about home cinema use. Just activate the kinect and navigate through the Metro UI and Apps using your arms (XBOX live on the XBOX is instilling something like this in the newest update).

As for Photoshop tablets will make its use even better than today. It is already touch "enabled", you can currently use touchpads like the Wacom Tablets (including the 24" full HD monitor beahmoth they are just releasing) and there are a number of Win7 tablets that have a wacom Digitiser. I hope there will be more available as for the last year or two I've really wanted a Wacom activated tablet to take on my travels rather than a laptop. Pen use would make photoshop so much easier for so many people and finger touch is just nowhere near as good as proper pen input.

I tested Windows 8 on my netbook, I know its marketed as the "developer version" but I expected it to be a little more polished that this. It's not usable at all, far too slow and jerky. I would expect a little more from Microsoft, given that Apple iOS betas are far more stable (Don't give me **** about the difference of building a mobile OS to a desktop OS either)

Sorry what? Are you running it visualised? It's butter smooth even on my old hardware. And well there is a big difference between a mobile OS and a full OS. I don't expect even the final version of Win8 (or OSX) for that matter to be as smooth as WP7 for example.

 

[Amp34]

The touch enabled desktop monitor in the living room will not take off because the remote solved the problem of getting up each and every time to change a channel or adjust the volume. Obviously there are many other cool things that can be done but again people don't want the hassle of going to the other side of the room to do it.

The only problem with the remote is the level of abstraction it creates between you and the screen. I imagine this is why the latest Apple TV doesn't have apps yet despite the findings in the OS that suggest it's coming.

It'd be a hard sell to get people to move up to the screen again when theyve been accustomed to using a remote control for so long.

It's like 3D TV where glasses are needed. Nobody in the real world likes or uses that stuff. It's really more proof of concept than something with mass market appeal.

TBH I don't think touchscreens will take off in desktop monitors either.

My take on the living room situation would be a W8 slate/tablet as the computer and remote with WiDi (wireless display) projecting the image wirelessly onto the TV in front of you.

Either you navigate using the tablet with the image cloned onto the TV or you use the TV as the extended desktop, playing the film/game on the TV using the tablet as the controller/remote.

It's all current technology but you need something to bring it together nicely and I think the tech has finally arrived over the last year or two to be able to integrate it into a brilliant UI, potentially Win8.

On the other hand for the standard desktop I'm not really seeing the current iteration of Win8 as being the way forward. I hope there will be some more concessions to desktop use that you can turn on and off (for example the start menu).

 

[nero120]

You seem closed minded, just because somethings new and shiny does not make it better.

Where did I say that? Seems a bit unfair to push your prejudices onto me.

All i'm saying is that for a lot of users Explorer in Windows 8 is more productive than Metro in Windows 8. At some point Microsoft will no doubt come up with a new UI for these users or modify the Metro UI, so that Explorer is no longer as productive as the alternative. And when this happens i'll stop using Explorer and start using the new UI.

Basically I use whatever is the most productive environment. Currently this is a desktop PC with a keyboard and mouse running the latest version of Explorer. After watching the keynotes and using the developer preview I don't think Windows 8 will change that (and judging by what was shown off and said in the day 1 keynote I think Microsoft agree).

Obviously all the above apply's to content producers. As a consumer I actually prefer Metro over Explorer...

Well you're never going to please everyone are you? Will metro work for a system admin? An office user? etc. Windows is different things to different people admittedly, but I like the idea of simplifying the OS as much as possible since Apple have shown us that you don't need a thousand context menu items to make a great and productive OS.

IMO, Windows badly needs to shrug off the out of date UI trappings from the 90s and not just try and keep up, but be progressive and unconventional in it's thinking, which is exactly what Metro is (especially for WP7). If some edge case groups feel that they need to be stuck in the past then I don't see why that should hold back the evolution of the OS.

In any case, you can always learn powershell!

 

[Glaucus]

Is not as if docking technology is new. It's what are office staff do. They have their laptops and on their desk they have a screen, keyboard, mouse and docking station.
For them a tablet is more than powerful in it's current state. Let alone quad core with cloud computing and storage.

 

[Amp34]

You're right, I can't imagine trying to play any of those games on an iPad.

But if you had a tablet that could play those games and you could dock it to a keyboard and mouse it then becomes a possibility. OK, you might need to include a larger monitor (or 3) and I think we've slipped into what NathanE was suggesting... Maybe even have a decent graphics card built into the dock to power these modern games rather than having it in the tablet.

I'd be very interested in a set up as described and I imagine there are quite a few gamers who would too.

Interesting point there... The new VAIO Z has separated the integrated and discrete graphics cards. When mobile the laptop runs on integrated Intel graphics but once plugged into the hub, which contains a dedicated graphics card and DVD/BD drive it automatically switched to the dedicated graphics.

This would be an excellent option for tablets as well...

I think I have just found my perfect next machine (maybe I should patent this design...!)

Essentially an 11" tablet with 1280x800 or 1600x900 screen, a reasonably powerful CPU and some integrated graphics, 8 or 16 GB of RAM, a 256GB (or more) SSD, Widi, 8ish hour battery life and Win8 all in a half -3/4 inch form factor.

Alongside the usual connections (HDMI, USB, sound etc) it would have a dock connection at the base that will slot the tablet into a dock, connected to the external GFX and BD reader (with a TB or more of Storage either within or connected for those extra bits, the dock could perhaps have wireless network connection and act as a NAS with ease). To the dock would be connected your wireless mouse and keyboard and a wired Screen (or 2/3) so you could do all your productive and powerful gaming things, using the tablet as a touchpad.

Alongside this a second dock would be available, much like the Transformers keyboard dock with keyboard and extra batteries for the productivity on the move situations.

In the living room would be a nice big TV or projector with WiDi and Kinect integration so the tablet could be attached wirelessly easily to the big screen and interfaced with either by touch or Kinect, streaming films from the Dock in the "study".

All easily doable with todays tech and not too expensive IMO yet for me would pretty much be a godsend. Get rid of my Desktop tower, 13" laptop and have a wireless streamer in the front room for film nights. A lot of manufacturers are trying to get to a similar stage but I just think most of the other OS's are crippled to much (OSX without touch ability, iOS, WP7 and Android without full program ability).

Heck in a few years from now we could get to the point where the tablet was just a dumb interface as well and be in a situation where something we use as a phone is the entire power behind most peoples lives, wirelessly streaming or docked (like the Atrix) to whatever sized display/interface device you want to use it on.

EDIT: Holy epic three posts there... I'm just really excited by the next few years, especially if I can afford the latest tech!

 

[Amp34]

Not that I have anything useful to add, but I just wanted to say the lack of vision and fear of change is this thread is priceless! Not to mention the amount of idiots who installed a dev build of a pre-beta OS on their computers expecting it to work like a consumer OS. If it were up to these guys we'd still be using beige boxes with huge hot monitors and a limit of 640k RAM...

Yay for Metro and good riddance to the goddamned desktop!

Haha, no, we'd still be waving sticks in caves...

"What! You want to use these sticks to create some kind of shelter! But they will not survive being leaned on!"

EDIT: Oh and I'm also assuming the WMP and WMC we know of today will soon not exist, I assume Zune will pretty much come as standard instead. That would be a very good move by MS IMO for a greater uptake of Windows Phone and the Zune Pass.

 

[NathanE]

Is not as if docking technology is new. It's what are office staff do. They have their laptops and on their desk they have a screen, keyboard, mouse and docking station.
For them a tablet is more than powerful in it's current state. Let alone quad core with cloud computing and storage.

It's not new, no. But I think it will see new innovation and adoption in coming years.

Hopefully some sort of standard connection mechanism will be produced so any tablet can dock with any docking station.

 

[Photek]

but I like the idea of simplifying the OS as much as possible since Apple have shown us that you don't need a thousand context menu items to make a great and productive OS.

IMO, Windows badly needs to shrug off the out of date UI trappings from the 90s and not just try and keep up, but be progressive and unconventional in it's thinking, which is exactly what Metro is (especially for WP7). If some edge case groups feel that they need to be stuck in the past then I don't see why that should hold back the evolution of the OS.

It's the total opposite with Apple. I've been running OSX Lion in VMware for some time... compared to even Windows 7 it feels dated, let alone Win 8. It's just a bench of shiny icons and cheesy animations, but that dont make something simple, innovative, or easy to use.

It's amazing that it still has all the old "file / edit / view" options around the place, even on the desktop. That part reminds me of Windows 3.1! Only now has OSX just got the ability with the Lion update to resize a window from any corner, and to make a window full screen (to anyone who's not used OSX, i'm actually serious!). But if you have multiple monitors, you can only make a window fullscreen on the first monitor, which also then makes all other monitors useless (they go grey, you cant do anything on them).

People give Apple way too much credit. But then, the best thing Apple do is advertising.

 

[ng93]

Where did I say that?

It's just the impression I got from your posts, you didn't seem to acknowledge that Explorer is better than Metro in some ways for some people and that different people will have valid reasons for preferring different environments (other than being stuck in the past of course ). Maybe thats not what you meant, but its the impression you gave me.

Seems a bit unfair to push your prejudices onto me.

My whole point is that different environments are better for different people/usage, how is that pushing prejudices

Well you're never going to please everyone are you? Will metro work for a system admin? An office user? etc. Windows is different things to different people admittedly, but I like the idea of simplifying the OS as much as possible since Apple have shown us that you don't need a thousand context menu items to make a great and productive OS.

IMO, Windows badly needs to shrug off the out of date UI trappings from the 90s and not just try and keep up, but be progressive and unconventional in it's thinking, which is exactly what Metro is (especially for WP7). If some edge case groups feel that they need to be stuck in the past then I don't see why that should hold back the evolution of the OS.

In any case, you can always learn powershell!

Using the most productive environment does not equal being stuck in the past. It's just using the latest software in the way which suits you.

And while content producers are a minority compared to consumers, they are very important in the success of OSs (just look at iOS).

Oh and while I agree that reducing unneeded complexity is a good thing, sometimes complexity is needed to aid productivity.

And i'm not saying Metro is bad. On the contrary I really like it, for consumers it looks awesome, but (in it's current form at least) it's just not designed for content production.

Apple have shown us that you don't need a thousand context menu items to make a great and productive OS.

Are you talking about iOS or OS X? As I don't think thats accurate for either of them. iOS has to many shortcomings to be considered a great and productive OS (simplistic and outdated interface, limited multi-tasking can only view one app at a time, needs another OS/computer to develop anything for it, doesn't scale well to larger screens as evidenced by the iPad). And OS X has more menus than Windows.

 

[Glaucus]

It's not new, no. But I think it will see new innovation and adoption in coming years.

Hopefully some sort of standard connection mechanism will be produced so any tablet can dock with any docking station.

Agree, but there's a few going omg docking will never work.

 

[theheyes]

TBH I don't think touchscreens will take off in desktop monitors either.

I'd have been inclined to agree a few months ago but today I bought a 22" 1920x1080 multi-touch panel for £189+VAT. I think there is a domino effect just waiting to happen with manufacturers including touch capabilities in their consumer monitors as standard.

I'm not saying it would be the ideal or preferred method of accessing a desktop PC, and power users would probably not use it at all, but you have to look at the bigger picture. Very young children instinctively reach out and touch the screen and a lot of older people are intimidated by mice and keyboards, not to mention the benefits for people who find accessibility a challenge. When prices come down to the point where you're essentially getting touch access "for free" it's no skin off the nose of the people who don't need or want it - you don't even lose any desk space. Lowering the bar for access is good news for everybody in a society where even public services are being computerised.

I think over time it will just become another standard input second only to the keyboard and mouse.

 

[ng93]

It's just a bench of shiny icons and cheesy animations

OS X has few animations, the icons bouncing and windows minimizing are the main two and there not exactly cheesy (although admittedly this is subjective). The icons are very shiny though

It's amazing that it still has all the old "file / edit / view" options around the place, even on the desktop. That part reminds me of Windows 3.1!

Well file, edit and view are useful categories for Finder. And with the global menu bar sitting there, it might as well be used for something when on desktop.

Only now has OSX just got the ability with the Lion update to resize a window from any corner

That is pretty shameful.

and to make a window full screen (to anyone who's not used OSX, i'm actually serious!).

I've got 10.5.8 and can make windows full screen (obviously not all apps suport this, but lots e.g. chrome do). It works the same on windows 7. Lion just added a new "type" of full screen.

People give Apple way too much credit. But then, the best thing Apple do is advertising.

Or lack of it. Apple are masters of generating hype by doing **** all

epic tablet idea

There was an anandtech article on ive bridge saying that oems can dynamically adjust tdp. So could have a 2Ghz dual core in a tablet, with some extra cooling fans on the dock, so when plugged in it fires up to 3Ghz

Anyway i'd buy one .

 

[3dcandy]

...and 1000 who aren't childish enough to call them crApple

always call them that....childish no, sense of humour debatable...

 

[3dcandy]

touch input is the way forward, I do agree...
as for touch monitors not being mainstream, until the iphone came along nobody really thought touchscreen phones would be ubiquitous

 

[m4cc45]

Personally, for me, touch is not the way forward. It would be highly impractable for me - especially for gaming (which for any FPS you need a keyboard and mouse).

I'd also hate seeing my screen messed up with fingerprints when you just want to watch a movie or when viewing pictures, etc. I still think the keyboard and mouse has many years left in it until touch is integrated with other devices better.

I like bits of Windows 8 but I'm more interested in how the desktop side develops rather than Metro as I'd be using it on a PC. It will also be interesting to see how it develops for business users.


M.

 

[anything I don't mind]

I tested Windows 8 on my netbook, I know its marketed as the "developer version" but I expected it to be a little more polished that this. It's not usable at all, far too slow and jerky. I would expect a little more from Microsoft, given that Apple iOS betas are far more stable (Don't give me **** about the difference of building a mobile OS to a desktop OS either)

This is a good reason to have two different OS because the more you optimize an OS for a mobile device, the more you do not take advantage of the desktop hardware. I know the new api apparently takes advantage of hardware. But how long before we see apps or even the OS taking advantage of it? It would be interesting to see what comes out of it, if the api is as good as they say it is.

 

[NathanE]

Every year mobile devices are doubling in processing power without harming battery life. Whilst putting Windows NT onto mobile devices could be a performance vs battery life ratio disadvantage in the very short term. Long term it won't matter. I dare say that Windows NT on mobile phones is still a year or two away anyway, still plenty of time to sort out any issues.

 

[anything I don't mind]

If they have made this API they might as well make metro skinnable and for it to be completely customizable. Have all sorts of weird ui elements and not just squares.

How long before we can have the same sort of features that we see in rainmeter application. How long before we have graphs of system usage?