Thinking of getting an EV

[bigmike20vt]

I think there are consequences to normalising the idea that an electric car battery has a limited lifespan, which mandating a menu option showing you the battery heath would do.

There are all sorts of sensors in a petrol engine to indicate when things are going wrong but there is no 'engine life left' menu option...

it dpends if you are glass half full or half empty imo.
i would say for arguments sake if someone was buying a 2nd hand car with 85k miles on it 7 years old, they may well be worried about the battery.

but if the seller can show them it is still at 90% health most would look at that as a good thing................ and if it were only at 60% health (for arguments sake, the reality is it should not be this bad) then that would definitely need looking at in the final year of the cars battery warranty, and is probably something the owner of the car should do before selling.

 

[dlockers]

The warranty is based on the battery health, at least in my Polestar. If it drops below (I think) 80% then The pack is replaced.

I would like to know if the health is going down quicker than it should be, as it’s not as obvious as if something mechanical broke.

If only the garage can see the figure, why would they ever even bother checking it?

Not sure I agree - and it may be the capitalist in me - but there will be plenty of folk perfectly happy with their battery at 80%. If, by routine, manufacturers went around replacing them automatically, the added costs would be enormous and just trickle back down to consumers. If the consumer hasn't even noticed an issue, then did the issue even exist? (bear pooing in the woods type analogy).

Nissan solved this with the battery leasing scheme - which for folk really bothered about battery health in year 7 or 8 of ownership can opt for.

 

[bigmike20vt]

i would be happy with a tiered warranty.

so for instance 8 year 125k warranty that the battery is over 80% and a 15 year 250k warranty that the battery is over 65%

the biggest fear i would have with a 12 year old EV with 180k miles on the clock isnt that it had lost 40 miles range from new, but that at some time i would plug the car in and it would fail to charge at all or that it would have a catastrophic failure meaning it was not usable.

 

[jpaul]

I won't derail the thread with the details but I can categorically say my experience was the opposite and it was the first car is ever repaired myself.

yes I'm wrong - there are currently many 3rd party party M3 suspension parts + manuals .. but insurance quotes of £700 for a tesla versus $£400 for an id3 seem more than a performance difference should justify,
and down to certified repairer costs.

------------

MG lifetime battery warranty - if maintaining the battery warranty means you have to have all your services done at a MG dealer that might be expensive

 

[bigmike20vt]

MG lifetime battery warranty - if maintaining the battery warranty means you have to have all your services done at a MG dealer that might be expensive

is that the case tho? i highly doubt it.... not sure it would even be legal? i thought so long as a reputable garage and they used official parts warranties had to be maintained?

edit......

https://good-garage-guide.honestjohn.co.uk/how-to-guides/should-i-service-my-car-at-a-dealer/

 

[lordrobs]

it dpends if you are glass half full or half empty imo.
i would say for arguments sake if someone was buying a 2nd hand car with 85k miles on it 7 years old, they may well be worried about the battery.

but if the seller can show them it is still at 90% health most would look at that as a good thing................ and if it were only at 60% health (for arguments sake, the reality is it should not be this bad) then that would definitely need looking at in the final year of the cars battery warranty, and is probably something the owner of the car should do before selling.

Sounds like another barrier to adoption for the new private market though. An area where sales are already minimal.

Not only do you have the 'worry' that the battery may degrade you now also have a tell tale indicator that massively knocks it's value for all to see.

Isn't battery degradation beyond a certain point non linear anyway which is why the warranties are set at the levels that they are?

The only comparison I can think of to ICE vehicles is the requirement to do a compression test on a rotary before buying one. A concern that ripped the bottom out of used RX8 prices. Other than that people just buy a car based on a pre-conceived notion of #k miles means that the engine has #k miles of life left in it.

 

[bigmike20vt]

Sounds like another barrier to adoption for the new private market though. An area where sales are already minimal.

Not only do you have the 'worry' that the battery may degrade you now also have a tell tale indicator that massively knocks it's value for all to see.

Isn't battery degradation beyond a certain point non linear anyway which is why the warranties are set at the levels that they are?

The only comparison I can think of to ICE vehicles is the requirement to do a compression test on a rotary before buying one. A concern that ripped the bottom out of used RX8 prices. Other than that people just buy a car based on a pre-conceived notion of #k miles means that the engine has #k miles of life left in it.

it only massively knocks its value surely if there is something wrong with it.
if the battery is holding up well - which most EV supporters argue they do - then i would have thought it would act as a positive reason to encourage sales of 2nd hand EVs.

and as for it meaning someone selling an EV where the battery had been treated hard, left sat at 100% for weeks on end and as such degraded far more than one would normally expect............ I cant say i see the issue there imo. Such a car should be sold at a significantly reduced price imo.

Surely no one wants to see buyers ripped off?

 

[lordrobs]

it only massively knocks its value surely if there is something wrong with it.
if the battery is holding up well - which most EV supporters argue they do - then i would have thought it would act as a positive reason to encourage sales of 2nd hand EVs.

and as for it meaning someone selling an EV where the battery had been treated hard, left sat at 100% for weeks on end and as such degraded far more than one would normally expect............ I cant say i see the issue there imo. Such a car should be sold at a significantly reduced price imo.

Surely no one wants to see buyers ripped off?

How do people know that their batteries are holding up well if they can't see the battery data? I guess the other point is how much data do you want people to be able to see?

Let's say, for arguments sake, there is a car with a 70kWh battery, 65kWh usable. At the moment it's owner might anecdotally state that their battery has had zero degradation over two years, because they don't see any drop in their range. Do you want people to be able to see the battery health as a % of usable or actual capacity as the values can be manipulated to be quite different.

As for whether I want to see buyers ripped off... it's a bit of a leading statement but ultimately, that's life. Have you never heard of people trading a car in with a slipping clutch or with crossed fingers as they hope that they get away from the dealership before the CEL comes back on that they cleared that morning? Some cars end up in the used system with defects, the used car industry soaks up some of that cost in terms of remedial work before a car is sold and some in terms of warranty work after the sale. Putting that data front and centre directly impacts the person trading it in (because lets face it, the private car sales market is dead) and only benefits the used car industry. They may have to take less money when they sell that car but they will instantly factor that in on the trade in value so it is the private individual who pays. It reduces their risk but shifts it onto teh individual.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about the majority of cars. It is a potential issue for a very small minority of cars. The unlucky person who's car drops to 88% health when all the comparable ones are at 96%. Not enough to trigger a warranty claim but enough to make yours look undesirable. The problem is that EVs for private buyers have a perception problem of 'but what if the battery fails' and what you are suggesting just backs that up with 'and I won't even be able to trade it in because the cars is announcing it has an issue'.

EDIT - I do agree that it will help used sales, but they need to start selling NEW EVs to private individuals.

 

[[TW]Fox]

it only massively knocks its value surely if there is something wrong with it.
if the battery is holding up well - which most EV supporters argue they do - then i would have thought it would act as a positive reason to encourage sales of 2nd hand EVs.

and as for it meaning someone selling an EV where the battery had been treated hard, left sat at 100% for weeks on end and as such degraded far more than one would normally expect............ I cant say i see the issue there imo. Such a car should be sold at a significantly reduced price imo.

Surely no one wants to see buyers ripped off?

This all seems quite complicated.

Can't we just put some petrol in the tank instead

 

[Penfold101]

Not sure I agree - and it may be the capitalist in me - but there will be plenty of folk perfectly happy with their battery at 80%. If, by routine, manufacturers went around replacing them automatically, the added costs would be enormous and just trickle back down to consumers. If the consumer hasn't even noticed an issue, then did the issue even exist? (bear pooing in the woods type analogy).

Nissan solved this with the battery leasing scheme - which for folk really bothered about battery health in year 7 or 8 of ownership can opt for.

If people are happy with 80% then that’s up to them - the warranty is set at that so the manufacturer is clearly confident it won’t go below that before 100k miles.
They wouldn’t give that much if they knew they would be replacing them ‘willy nilly’.
Similarly, if I buy a second hand one still within the warranty period I will want to know the percentage so I can get it replaced.

I’d like to think that the battery manufacturers have done all their research and testing to know what sort of life the packs will have and so what warranty to offer…

In a similar vein, I bought a new Insignia in 2012 with a lifetime/100k warranty, but only for the first owner. Vauxhall were banking on few people keeping them up till that mileage so it was a good selling point and one that helped make my decision to buy it.
I kept that car till 113k miles, but had very little use for the warranty as the car was almost faultless the whole time bar some electrical gremlins with the heated seats. If they knew their cars would break down all the time it would be a silly thing to offer, but at least I knew when there was a fault so I could get it looked at, rather than just hiding things away where it can’t be seen.

 

[danlightbulb]

I've gone for the lease.

£435 a month net after salary sacrifice, £455 including expected charging costs, compared to running my current old car at £400 per month. 4 year lease. So £55 more and I drive a brand new car, delivered to me, with all insurance maintenance tyres breakdown, road tax etc all included.

I recognise the loan would have been cheaper in the long term as I'd have owned the car. But I would have to have a £20-23k loan for it, over 5 years, which is a substantial loan. And then source the car as the ones locally seemed inflated in price (more like £25-26k instead of £20-23k). I'd own the car and little dings and knocks wouldn't matter so much, but the residual value would be uncertain.

So that's it, decision made and order placed.

Only hope now is its not the 20 week lead time estimated by the lease company. I spoke to them on the phone and they seemed to think it would be quicker, but that could be lies.

Thanks for all the help.

 

[lordrobs]

Well done on making a decision. Worry free motoring seemed to be your priority and the salary sacrifice lease will certainly give you that.

 

[bigmike20vt]

sounds a decent price to me for a new car.

 

[bigmike20vt]

How do people know that their batteries are holding up well if they can't see the battery data? I guess the other point is how much data do you want people to be able to see?

Let's say, for arguments sake, there is a car with a 70kWh battery, 65kWh usable. At the moment it's owner might anecdotally state that their battery has had zero degradation over two years, because they don't see any drop in their range. Do you want people to be able to see the battery health as a % of usable or actual capacity as the values can be manipulated to be quite different.

As for whether I want to see buyers ripped off... it's a bit of a leading statement but ultimately, that's life. Have you never heard of people trading a car in with a slipping clutch or with crossed fingers as they hope that they get away from the dealership before the CEL comes back on that they cleared that morning? Some cars end up in the used system with defects, the used car industry soaks up some of that cost in terms of remedial work before a car is sold and some in terms of warranty work after the sale. Putting that data front and centre directly impacts the person trading it in (because lets face it, the private car sales market is dead) and only benefits the used car industry. They may have to take less money when they sell that car but they will instantly factor that in on the trade in value so it is the private individual who pays. It reduces their risk but shifts it onto teh individual.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about the majority of cars. It is a potential issue for a very small minority of cars. The unlucky person who's car drops to 88% health when all the comparable ones are at 96%. Not enough to trigger a warranty claim but enough to make yours look undesirable. The problem is that EVs for private buyers have a perception problem of 'but what if the battery fails' and what you are suggesting just backs that up with 'and I won't even be able to trade it in because the cars is announcing it has an issue'.

EDIT - I do agree that it will help used sales, but they need to start selling NEW EVs to private individuals.

funnily enough by absolute coincidence i just listened to this podcast with Quentin Wilson from the Stop BS campaign. (i actually have not got to the end yet)

however 16:40 mins in he is talking about introducing a mandate to allow you to go to a garage and get a battery healthcheck and get a certificate showing it to use when selling the car, which is exactly on point for this .

Electric Cars & The Inevitable ICE Free Future With Quentin Willson | The Fully Charged Show Podcast

In this episode Robert Llewellyn sits down with former Top Gear presenter turned fierce EV advocator, Quentin Willson to discuss the rise of the electric veh...

www.youtube.com

 

[dlockers]

£20,880 over 4 years. Less say ~800 a year for insurance and maybe £200/year for servicing, that's ~£16780 for 4 years of motoring.

 

[danlightbulb]

£20,880 over 4 years. Less say ~800 a year for insurance and maybe £200/year for servicing, that's ~£16780 for 4 years of motoring.

Currently spend £180-200 a month on fuel so that's nearly £10k over 4 years. Take that off as well and the car is costing me say £7k for 4 years. Take off potential for £1200 a year repair costs (£100 a month) and the switch is nearly break even.

I think its an ok decision. It might not be best value, but compared to what I currently have its a big improvement.

 

[danlightbulb]

Ive shopped around on the charger installations and no-ones really beating Octopus's own installation quote. Im going to get the Zappi as it's got the wifi and integral cable storage.

 

[bigmike20vt]

Ive shopped around on the charger installations and no-ones really beating Octopus's own installation quote. Im going to get the Zappi as it's got the wifi and integral cable storage.

i have a zappi... its good, its also supported directly by intelligent octopus. if i can reccomend 1 thing however, make sure your installer uses the slightly more expensive cable with the network cable integrated, and ask for your grid CT clamp to be wired, not using the HARVI wireless transmitter.

we had issues with ours and it ended up being a flakey radio signal from the harvi. it shouldnt have been as it was not far, and only through some thin wood wall and a window, but there was some interference messing it up. since getting the CT Clamp hardwired it has been great... only thing is i have 2 wires run around the house not just 1, which you will have if you get the integrated cable.

 

[dlockers]

Currently spend £180-200 a month on fuel so that's nearly £10k over 4 years. Take that off as well and the car is costing me say £7k for 4 years. Take off potential for £1200 a year repair costs (£100 a month) and the switch is nearly break even.

I think its an ok decision. It might not be best value, but compared to what I currently have its a big improvement.

Fuel is £9k at £190/mo - electricity I think you reckoned was £25/mo? So still £1.2k (but 7.8k better off). That's £17980 for 4 years including power, less insurance, less servicing. Previously you were at £19200 and STILL had a car you owned at the end of 4 years.

It isn't "bad" but I can't see how your loan maths didn't work out much more favourably. You are paying £4.5k a year to rent a car you have to give back in 4 years?

GMFV on a MG5 is currently at ~9k at 4 years old.

P.S. I use thesalarycalculator.co.uk to work out my net impact vs. my own excel. Input figures from your wage slip to get exactly the right current take home, then adjust accordingly.

 

[danlightbulb]

It isn't "bad" but I can't see how your loan maths didn't work out much more favourably. You are paying £4.5k a year to rent a car you have to give back in 4 years?

The loan was more favourable for sure. Probably about a half to two thirds the cost over 5 years if taking account of the residual value.

And that's fine but what it doesn't recognise is the short term uplift in cost (to pay the loan repayments on quite a large loan).

I balanced the best whole life option against the option that wouldn't change my current costs too much and decided to go for the lease option on that basis.