This is why people are losing respect for the police...
- Thread starter RossGReds
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If gang and OCG related homicides by robust policing, what the hell have them police been up to the last 100 years?
The reality is, a lot of police work is spent protecting the upper classes corruption and on the war on drugs, the latter of which has completely failed, and far too many police resources are wasted on it. Far better to legalise drugs and deal with it from a health perspective so police can be assigned to deal with crime that actually directly causes harm like burglary, muggings, DV and public order.
And if the person harming another person is under the influence of or in possession of drugs, or involved in the supply of them, as is so often the case?
You tell me, you're the one arguing that the police can't do anything about it so you must have the data to hand. There's really nothing idealistic about it, these are things that are happening daily across every force in the country.
Soldato
Met Police sergeant, 34, 'raped woman in Brighton during his stag do'
Laurence Knight, 34, allegedly carried out the attack after his group were entertained by strippers at their AirBnb in the Sussex resort.
Why are drug dealers murdering each other? Because they are operating as criminals.
Sainsbury’s staff and share holders aren’t chefing up Tesco staff are they?
No one’s getting loaded up on heroin or marijuana to go out and start a pub fight. Crack and meth are far more of a health problem if you take away the abject poverty a crack head is in as an addict who is punished for being a criminal Vs helped for the crack head related issues.
If we are going to crack down on what people are under the influence most when they commit crime, it’s going to be alcohol at the top of the list.
If the person is under the influence of drugs, that will be an aggravating factor under the overarching sentencing guidelines.
General guideline: overarching principles – Sentencing
www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk
Other aggravating factors
- Commission of offence whilst under the influence of alcohol or drugs
- Offence was committed as part of a group
- Offence involved use or threat of a weapon
- Planning of an offence
- Commission of the offence for financial gain
- High level of profit from the offence
- Abuse of trust or dominant position
- Restraint, detention or additional degradation of the victim
- Vulnerable victim
- Victim was providing a public service or performing a public duty at the time of the offence
- Other(s) put at risk of harm by the offending
- Offence committed in the presence of other(s) (especially children)
- Actions after the event including but not limited to attempts to cover up/ conceal evidence
- Blame wrongly placed on other(s)
- Failure to respond to warnings or concerns expressed by others about the offender’s behaviour
- Offence committed on licence or while subject to court order(s)
- Offence committed in custody
- Offences taken into consideration
- Offence committed in a domestic context
- Offence committed in a terrorist context
- Location and/or timing of offence
- Established evidence of community/wider impact
- Prevalence
The data was already provided by @potatolord it shows a substantial drop in homicide each century before the police were implemented and then a much smaller absolute drop afterwards, which could be attributed to advancing technology and changes in society. You're the one trying to prove that the police has had a dramatic effect on the murder rate.
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Soldato
I know it's somewhat trendy to bash the failed 'war on drugs' policies, and to insist that drugs should be dealt with as a health rather than a criminal justice matter....but the reality is that, whilst the legislation has not changed in a long time (misuse of drugs act 1971 et al), the way in which the vast majority of simple drugs possession offences are dealt with by police on a practical level, that it is in effect almost decriminalised by the back door anyway, and that police are already pushing hugely towards treating it as a health issue.
There is a massive emphasis on diversion into drugs/alcohol treatment and addiction support services especially for those suspects/offenders with a limited offending history.
The UK is not like America where people are routinely being jailed (or even sent to court) for a ten bag of weed.
A stop and search leading to a small quantity of cannabis for personal use will rarely lead to an arrest for example, if the person accepts possession they will generally get a referral to participate in drugs awareness session and be let on their way, with the drugs seized and a crime recorded. Not exactly a process that takes an officer off patrol for hours on end.
Those arrested for acquisitive offences (shoplifting, theft from motor vehicle and the like) are tested for class A drugs in custody, and referred into treatment programmes.
Most larger custody facilities will have someone from an NHS service who can get people into drugs treatment programmes, that the detainee can speak to. Such workers also have the opportunity to get appointments in relation to mental health services as well, for those that struggle to access services the regular way.
That sentencing guidelines treatment drugs or alcohol abuse as an aggravating factor does not mean every simple drugs offence ends up in court, far from it it, yhe police now actively go out of their way to avoid sending people to court for such things, as the public interest test is rarely met and where police time/resources are better spent elsewhere.
Check out these:
cranstoun.org
cranstoun.org
cranstoun.org
There is a massive emphasis on diversion into drugs/alcohol treatment and addiction support services especially for those suspects/offenders with a limited offending history.
The UK is not like America where people are routinely being jailed (or even sent to court) for a ten bag of weed.
A stop and search leading to a small quantity of cannabis for personal use will rarely lead to an arrest for example, if the person accepts possession they will generally get a referral to participate in drugs awareness session and be let on their way, with the drugs seized and a crime recorded. Not exactly a process that takes an officer off patrol for hours on end.
Those arrested for acquisitive offences (shoplifting, theft from motor vehicle and the like) are tested for class A drugs in custody, and referred into treatment programmes.
Most larger custody facilities will have someone from an NHS service who can get people into drugs treatment programmes, that the detainee can speak to. Such workers also have the opportunity to get appointments in relation to mental health services as well, for those that struggle to access services the regular way.
That sentencing guidelines treatment drugs or alcohol abuse as an aggravating factor does not mean every simple drugs offence ends up in court, far from it it, yhe police now actively go out of their way to avoid sending people to court for such things, as the public interest test is rarely met and where police time/resources are better spent elsewhere.
Check out these:
Arrest Referrals - Cranstoun
Cranstoun’s Arrest Referral Service provides offenders the opportunity to break the cycle of crime and substance use. We currently deliver this service with West Midlands Police and Warwickshire Police.
cranstoun.org
DIVERT® - Cranstoun
DIVERT is Cranstoun’s pre-arrest drug diversion programme for those found by the police in possession of small quantities of a controlled substance.
cranstoun.org
Criminal Justice Support | Cranstoun
Cranstoun works directly with statutory & third sector organisations within the criminal justice system to support & educate offenders, victims, & others.
cranstoun.org
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I know it's somewhat trendy to bash the failed 'war on drugs' policies, and to insist that drugs should be dealt with as a health rather than a criminal justice matter....but the reality is that, whilst the legislation has not changed in a long time (misuse of drugs act 1971 et al), the way in which the vast majority of simple drugs possession offences are dealt with by police on a practical level, that it is in effect almost decriminalised by the back door anyway, and that police are already pushing hugely towards treating it as a health issue.
There is a massive emphasis on diversion into drugs/alcohol treatment and addiction support services especially for those suspects/offenders with a limited offending history.
The UK is not like America where people are routinely being jailed (or even sent to court) for a ten bag of weed.
A stop and search leading to a small quantity of cannabis for personal use will rarely lead to an arrest for example, if the person accepts possession they will generally get a referral to participate in drugs awareness session and be let on their way, with the drugs seized and a crime recorded. Not exactly a process that takes an officer off patrol for hours on end.
Those arrested for acquisitive offences (shoplifting, theft from motor vehicle and the like) are tested for class A drugs in custody, and referred into treatment programmes.
Most larger custody facilities will have someone from an NHS service who can get people into drugs treatment programmes, that the detainee can speak to. Such workers also have the opportunity to get appointments in relation to mental health services as well, for those that struggle to access services the regular way.
That sentencing guidelines treatment drugs or alcohol abuse as an aggravating factor does not mean every simple drugs offence ends up in court, far from it it, yhe police now actively go out of their way to avoid sending people to court for such things, as the public interest test is rarely met and where police time/resources are better spent elsewhere.
Check out these:
Arrest Referrals - Cranstoun
Cranstoun’s Arrest Referral Service provides offenders the opportunity to break the cycle of crime and substance use. We currently deliver this service with West Midlands Police and Warwickshire Police.
DIVERT® - Cranstoun
DIVERT is Cranstoun’s pre-arrest drug diversion programme for those found by the police in possession of small quantities of a controlled substance.
Criminal Justice Support | Cranstoun
Cranstoun works directly with statutory & third sector organisations within the criminal justice system to support & educate offenders, victims, & others.
So we have done it, but don't have the guts to do it properly and remove it from the hands of criminals. Not good.
Exactly what I was about to say... You could argue it's the worst of both worlds in that it will embolden the dealers and allow them to make more money and cause more harm to users and increase violence and intimidation to the public and rival dealers.
They are selling a product, so make that product worthless by giving it free to addicts in a controlled manner. That helps the addict in that they will be able to get more effective intervention and won't go out robbing to feed the habit, and perhaps more crucially it vaporises the profits of the violent dealers.
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So the crux of your argument is essentially that because there could be other influential factors, the creation of "the police" (which is a rather vague concept to apply to an entire continent over 100-year intervals) can't have had any significant impact on homicide prevention. I assume you're familiar with the basic concept of "correlation does not imply causation"?
I've tried to prove no such thing. I've told you how the police can and do prevent homicides as they aren't necessarily as spontaneous as you were trying to suggest.
Popping in to cook them delicious meals?
Soldato
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This is an honest question.
If you make drugs free to addicts does that create more or less societal damage, and how do you protect the rest of society from the acts of addicts?
For instance do we allow hugely increased random drug testing and expeditated dismissal processes for those turning up to work under the influence?
I should think getting them into a position where they can ask for any help whatsoever and it being available to them along with their vice is probably better than just having them shiv grandma out doing her shopping for some cash.
Soldato
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When I lived in Switzerland 17 years or so ago, they had specific clinics where the drug user could go and shoot up with whatever it was they needed.
And then were able to function and go to work.
Think they could go before work, at lunchtime and after work.
So it was much more beneficial and safer for society as a whole, than constantly demonising them and making them criminals.
Might be different now but it seemingly worked and was a decent compromise.
I'd see people rolling up joints on the train and it was liberating!
Soldato
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I would have concerns that such permissiveness would lead to increased drug use. And although it may be safer many of these drugs are bad for you in life changing ways even without resorting to crime to support them. We used to see lots of rich people whose lives spiralled out of control whilst being able to afford to buy drugs. Is the risk of more addicts a net benefit, I genuinely don't know.
I work in heavy industry, by and large drug use is not a an issue, but would a permissive society put more people at risk from people working under the influence or even working in withdrawal?
I work in heavy industry, by and large drug use is not a an issue, but would a permissive society put more people at risk from people working under the influence or even working in withdrawal?
Soldato
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Sorry, I posted the homicide stats he referred to.
There is a difference between raw numbers and proportions. Late mediaeval homicide rates were ridiculously high, and there was a significant drop in numbers over the following centuries.
As numbers have dropped from a very high base, later reductions can lnificant in raw number terms. They're not insignificant.
I've already pointed out a 50% drop between the 19th and 20th century, albeit on low numbers. That is a very significant proportional reduction.
It's likely that a range of factors has resulted in our current, historically low, homicide rates.
Policing and enforcement is one of those factors.
Policing does not stop impulsive crimes, but it does dissuade people from pursuing vendettas. There is plenty of evidence of how crime can spiral when law enforcement breaks down.
One thing that policing, and jailing offenders, does very effectively is to demonstrate that the law exists and is applied. Without that, there is only revenge.
Anyone who has spent time in "naughty world" knows how the respect/honour and vengeance thing goes, and why the vast majority of people are totally unequipped for that reality.
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I would imagine the majority of societal harm isn't so much violence against people by drug users, but robbery etc to fund drug habits.
Soldato
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I accept all of those as reductions but on the other side do we think the numbers of addicts will increase and will there be more drug use related illness or accidents. I'm broadly supportive of the zero crime approach to drug use, I just want to be sufficiently skeptical of the reciprocal impacts too.
I'm no expert and have no stats, but let's face it, if you want drugs today you can get them if you have the cash.
My own personal experience from my teens and early 20s is that them being illegal made me take more and varied drugs.
I just liked a bit of weed, but invariably you can't just buy a bit if you fancy it on a Friday night, so I bought it when it was available and more than I needed for just a Friday night. It also exposed me to other drugs like pills, coke, etc.
The problem at the moment is that a lot of drugs are effectively decriminalised but the saving on police effort isn't then redirected to dealing with problem drug users through support and rehab etc.
Soldato
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I think there is definitely not enough intensive help for those with mental health difficulties when it comes to addiction.
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