Today's mass shooting in the US

[Werewolf]

Poverty is an insufficient explanation for varying rates of crime rates in the US...

The claim is often made that blacks commit more crime either because they are poor or because of some legacy of suffering from slavery and segregation.

Neither of these make any sense when examined more closely.

There are nearly three times as many whites living in poverty in the US than blacks as an absolute number (the percentage for blacks as group is about double that of whites but there are far fewer blacks overall than whites).

From 2018 figures there were around 25, 295,122 White Americans living in poverty (as defined by the federal governments poverty threshold)

vs 9,148691 blacks living in poverty

https://www.povertyusa.org/facts
https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/IPE120218

So if poverty was the main issue then the poor whites should be massively inflating the rate of overall violent crimes for whites vs the smaller number of blacks living in poverty in the US.

If a legacy of oppression was the cause of crime then we could expect one of the most consistently systemically oppressed groups in all of history (the Jews) to top the per capita rates for violent crime but we don't see this.

Instead we see them and other minority groups who often entered the US poor like Koreans and Indians not only surpassing blacks in many metrics (including not being arrested or incarcerated) but also significantly beating the white majority in many cases.

Ah the joys of completely misunderstanding basic statistics.

You yourself say about poverty that the percentage of blacks living in poverty is about double that of whites...

Also it's like the old picture of statistical analysis of how bombers should have extra protection added in WW2, based on the ones that made it back. They had a lot of damage, but oddly not much around the vital areas such as engines, at least on the ones that made it back to be used in the study...

A much higher rate of black people in poverty will be living in quite close quarters, usually in a relatively small number of cities, whilst a lot of the white people living in similar levels of poverty are very spread out and in many cases may be in poverty but with opportunities to do things like get food from somewhere other than a shop (if you're in poverty somewhere with woods/wildlife you can get food from "the wilds", if you're in a similar level of poverty in a city you've not got that). You can also be "in poverty" in a rural area but still have access to quite a lot of the most basic stuff like food, which will often be considerably cheaper than in a city for the real basics.

 

[Chris Wilson]

Your arguments remind me of the Eugenics arguments and Scientific racism used in the 1920's and 30's. The false equivalencies you're trying to use are quite staggering (but to be expected).
Koreans, Indians or Jews for that matter were never made to be slaves for going on 400 hundred years in recent history.

So, when you have another subset of people that have been made slaves for that period of time (not just indentured servitude) and want to try and draw some statistical inference then come back and try again.

From around 1969 to 1989 one of the world's finest minds was deeply into eugenics and some of his views were somewhat controversial, so the 1920's to the 1930's was by no means the last time period for such arguments to be mainstream.

William Shockley - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Even if you don't agree with his eugenics opinions his life history and scientific achievements make remarkable reading.

 

[Junglist]

I find America fascinating but also don't waste too much time trying to understand it. I know some people shudder at the word 'multiculturalism' but at least for all of our faults here, I think we do quite a good job at it.

America just seems to become more and more divided by the day.

 

[Werewolf]

and if Eugenics were followed, we'd have lost many of the people that turned out to be the worlds greatest minds.

It's almost like the whole field is poorly understood, poorly implimented when it's been tried and largely a load of nonsense. Even prior to the 1920's there were high profile examples of people that were considered genius's who'd have never been born if eugenicists had their way.

 

[Caracus2k]

---

Ah the joys of completely misunderstanding basic statistics.

I'm not sure exactly how you think any of that refutes the proposition that poverty is an insufficient explanation for varying crime rates between groups when you a have yourself introduced another variable (% of a group living in urban or rural areas)!

And looking at the urban youth rioting in Chicago recently I don't the suggestion that they are commiting crime because they can't find anywhere to buy food holds up to much scrutiny!

https://twitter.com/x/status/1648509759132409861

Seems like lots of designer clothes and trainers on hand and there's always the friendly 'Subway' store open to visit in the small hours of the morning...

(Just be careful to avoid thoose noose wielding, red hat wearing Nigerians)

Cities should offer people far more opportunities not only to obtain work but to be legally 'entertained l'

 

[C Kent]

What is your actual point? Are you claiming there is no racism against minorities but lots of it against 'whitey' (as you call it)?

Why am I not surprised that it's you that goes down the Cathy Newman route, you really are a caricature of a lefty cult member aren't you.

These 'white people' that come across as racist are just misunderstood are they?

Which white people Tony? The old geezer (despite there being zero evidence of there being anything racially motivated in the shooting of the kid) being labeled a racist by the big brains here because he is white and the victim was black? Thanks for proving my point.

 

[Colonel_Klinck]

Poverty is an insufficient explanation for varying rates of crime rates in the US...

The claim is often made that blacks commit more crime either because they are poor or because of some legacy of suffering from slavery and segregation.

Neither of these make any sense when examined more closely.

There are nearly three times as many whites living in poverty in the US than blacks as an absolute number (the percentage for blacks as group is about double that of whites but there are far fewer blacks overall than whites).

From 2018 figures there were around 25, 295,122 White Americans living in poverty (as defined by the federal governments poverty threshold)

vs 9,148691 blacks living in poverty

https://www.povertyusa.org/facts
https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/IPE120218

So if poverty was the main issue then the poor whites should be massively inflating the rate of overall violent crimes for whites vs the smaller number of blacks living in poverty in the US.

If a legacy of oppression was the cause of crime then we could expect one of the most consistently systemically oppressed groups in all of history (the Jews) to top the per capita rates for violent crime but we don't see this.

Instead we see them and other minority groups who often entered the US poor like Koreans and Indians not only surpassing blacks in many metrics (including not being arrested or incarcerated) but also significantly beating the white majority in many cases.

What you aren't taking into account there is where they live. Poor inner city neighbourhoods tend to be black where as poor rural areas tend to be white. In the same way as there is far more crime in poor areas of cities in the UK compared to poor rural areas, the same is true in the US. There is a lot of crime in poor rural areas in America but there are just a lot less people living there, less people, less crime.

I'm not trying to give black people who commit crimes a pass here, I don't think anyone is trying to do that. But you can't just set history aside. The US still has a huge race problem.

 

[Caracus2k]

Koreans, Indians or Jews for that matter were never made to be slaves for going on 400 hundred years in recent history.

Jews were sold into slavery by the Romans, after their second revolt, and suffered thousands of years of repeated pogroms, very commonly subjected to laws that demanded they were evicted from countries or made second class citizens in them and to top ot all of in Europe were subject to a military level attempt to wipe them all out still within living memory.

And yet again you reveal yourself for the clown you are when it comes to knowing what you are talking about.

The first African slaves arrived in late August of 1619. And legal slavery ended in the US in 1865.....

Which means your '400' years is only out by a bit over 150 years!

 

[StriderX]

There are still slaves today in every city in this country, it's not remotely 'ended'.

 

[C Kent]

America just seems to become more and more divided by the day.

Is it truly becoming more divided or is social media just highlighting any and all differences? By pretty much every metric crime is down massively compared to 40 odd years ago, there's nowhere near the level of discrimination now compared to then either. That said the more certain groups push to highlight racial/cultural differences it should be of no surprise that these differences are pushed into the spotlight compared to 10 years ago. Take for example universities, if you had said 10 years ago that minorities would be pushing for their own forced segregated spaces you would have been laughed at and yet here we are.

There are still slaves today in every city in this country, it's not remotely 'ended'.

That's not what he claimed, good job reading tho.

 

[Caracus2k]

@Colonel_Klinck @Werewolf

Well this is embarrassing for your theories guys...

Rural communities are experiencing high rates of gun violence

· From 2016 to 2020, the two U.S. counties to experience the most gun homicides per capita were rural:* (see Figure 1)

• Phillips County, Arkansas: 55.45 age-adjusted homicides per 100,000 people
• Lowndes County, Alabama: 48.36 age-adjusted homicides per 100,000 people**

Gun Violence in Rural America - Center for American Progress



Phillips County, Arkansas

White alone - 35.4%

Black or African American alone – 62.2%

U.S. Census Bureau QuickFacts: Phillips County, Arkansas



Lowndes County, Alabama

White alone – 25.9%

Black or African American alone 72.5%



U.S. Census Bureau QuickFacts: Lowndes County, Alabama

 

[Conscript]

Why am I not surprised that it's you that goes down the Cathy Newman route, you really are a caricature of a lefty cult member aren't you.

By "goes down the Cathy Newman route", do you mean, that thing where someone says something, and then the other person says "So you're saying...." followed by a statement that they didn't say...

It is funny that for decades certain white people having denied there is a racism problem they now try to claim there is but its aimed at them. Its like some kind of sick joke.

so there's no racism against whitey in the Western world?

...like this?

Just checking.

 

[VincentHanna]

Teen brothers among six charged in Alabama party killings

Four young partygoers were killed and 32 injured, but police still can't say what happened.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[C Kent]

By "goes down the Cathy Newman route", do you mean, that thing where someone says something, and then the other person says "So you're saying...." followed by a statement that they didn't say...


...like this?

Just checking.

oh my bad, perhaps you can point me to these white people that denied there was a racism issue in the US but are now claiming they are the victim of racism instead then.

 

[Junglist]

Is it truly becoming more divided or is social media just highlighting any and all differences? By pretty much every metric crime is down massively compared to 40 odd years ago, there's nowhere near the level of discrimination now compared to then either. That said the more certain groups push to highlight racial/cultural differences it should be of no surprise that these differences are pushed into the spotlight compared to 10 years ago. Take for example universities, if you had said 10 years ago that minorities would be pushing for their own forced segregated spaces you would have been laughed at and yet here we are.

I think it's becoming more divided because of social media, to be honest. It's now easier than ever to get stuck in a echo chamber which simply reinforces your world view as you'll likely be drawn to a place that repeats your already established view of the world until you think it's fact.

I'm guilty of it here. I frequent threads that reinforce my view and then before long I assume it's normal for people to want to spend several thousand on a computer when in reality, it's a fringe view.

 

[Conscript]

oh my bad, perhaps you can point me to these white people that denied there was a racism issue in the US but are now claiming they are the victim of racism instead then.

I doubt I can, but then I'm not really interested in doing so. I don't really agree with his statement - but I am at least able to recognise that it in no way implied he thought there was no racism against white people in the west, so I wouldn't try and suggest that's what he was getting it.
I just thought it worth pointing out that if you're going to throw your toys out of the pram about people mis-representing your argument, as if that's something that only a "lefty cult member" would do, then perhaps you should be careful when you've done the exact same thing yourself, on the same page of the thread.

 

[C Kent]

I doubt I can, but then I'm not really interested in doing so. I don't really agree with his statement - but I am at least able to recognise that it in no way implied he thought there was no racism against white people in the west, so I wouldn't try and suggest that's what he was getting it.
I just thought it worth pointing out that if you're going to throw your toys out of the pram about people mis-representing your argument, as if that's something that only a "lefty cult member" would do, then perhaps you should be careful when you've done the exact same thing yourself, on the same page of the thread.

It was more a dig at the poster in question as he's notorious for his 'Cathy's' as it were, the guy just posts and runs, never backing up his position on a topic ever
(for clarity I'm talking about Tony)

 

[Caracus2k]

And just in case anyone thought the top two were atypical of the rest of the US countries toping the gun deaths stats....

Here the next 14 counties out of the top 20 list for all US counties and urban areas

1)County
2) adjusted rate per 100,00
3) % white/ black alone


Macon County, Alabama 44.34
18/79.9

Leflore County, Mississippi 38.6
22.9/75.3

Dallas County, Alabama 37.25
27.1/71

Dillon County, South Carolina 35.57
46.7/47

Washington County, Mississippi 34.19
25.5/72.7

Jefferson County, Arkansas 34.08
39.6/ 57.4

Orleans Parish, Louisiana 32.83
35.4/59.5

Holmes County, Mississippi 32.31
15.7/ 83.1

Hinds County, Mississippi 31.68
24.7/ 73.5

Adams County, Mississippi 28.26
43.9/53.7

Mississippi County, Arkansas 27.80
61.6/35.8

Sunflower County, Mississippi 27.61
24.8/ 73.8

Coahoma County, Mississippi 27.19
20.7/77.7

Vance County, North Carolina 25.85
44.3/52

 

[sidimmu]

And just in case anyone thought the top two were atypical of the rest of the US countries toping the gun deaths stats....

Here the next 14 counties out of the top 20 list for all US counties and urban areas

1)County
2) adjusted rate per 100,00
3) % white/ black alone


Macon County, Alabama 44.34
18/79.9

Leflore County, Mississippi 38.6
22.9/75.3

Dallas County, Alabama 37.25
27.1/71

Dillon County, South Carolina 35.57
46.7/47

Washington County, Mississippi 34.19
25.5/72.7

Jefferson County, Arkansas 34.08
39.6/ 57.4

Orleans Parish, Louisiana 32.83
35.4/59.5

Holmes County, Mississippi 32.31
15.7/ 83.1

Hinds County, Mississippi 31.68
24.7/ 73.5

Adams County, Mississippi 28.26
43.9/53.7

Mississippi County, Arkansas 27.80
61.6/35.8

Sunflower County, Mississippi 27.61
24.8/ 73.8

Coahoma County, Mississippi 27.19
20.7/77.7

Vance County, North Carolina 25.85
44.3/52

So, poverty wins?

 

[MartinPrince]

The first African slaves arrived in late August of 1619. And legal slavery ended in the US in 1865.....

Which means your '400' years is only out by a bit over 150 years!

My dates were from when the beginning of the Atlantic slave trade which started in 1444... so that would actually make going on over 400 years. So, I see a bit of projection on your part with you calling me a clown!

With Jim Crow laws not ending deep into the 20th Century and the last black person lynched being in 1981, it would be a little naive to say that the mistreatment of black people stopped dead in 1865.

And you call me a clown.